How many of you BJJ guys train hip throws (Ogashi)?

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's Shaio Jiao (sp?), not Judo.

Btw, any groundfighting in SJ?

I don't think defense and counter to hip throw should be any different between SC (or SJ) and Judo.

SC has no ground fight. Whoever's body touch on the ground first will lose that round. That's why you won't see pull guard used in any SC tournament.

 

[Hanzou]

SC has no ground fight. Whoever's body touch on the ground first will lose that round. That's why you won't see pull guard used in any SC tournament.

Hmmmm, that's a real shame.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Can you please break down how you avoid a back take?

I can't. It's beyond my comprehension how you would allow that. So I'll have to ask you instead how bad you have you be.

 

[drop bear]

I can't. It's beyond my comprehension how you would allow that. So I'll have to ask you instead how bad you have you be.

Easy you turn your back to throw and they defend it. Leaving you with your back exposed. Happens a lot if you try it on guys with takedown defense.

Here is Dan Kelly explaining the same problem. So I am as bad as a judo Olympian UFC fighter I guess.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can't. It's beyond my comprehension how you would allow that. So I'll have to ask you instead how bad you have you be.

Here is an example. If you don't control your opponent's arms well, his free hands can give you trouble.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Easy you turn your back to throw and they defend it. Leaving you with your back exposed. Happens a lot if you try it on guys with takedown defense.

Here is Dan Kelly explaining the same problem. So I am as bad as a judo Olympian UFC fighter I guess.

That's no gi first of all. He showed losing grip of the opponent, which is epic failure. I thought you meant the opponent strangling you once you lift him up.

 

[drop bear]

That's no gi first of all. He showed losing grip of the opponent, which is epic failure. I thought you meant the opponent strangling you once you lift him up.

No the oponant just slips his hips out. And the throw fails. A failed throw isn't always the end of the world unless you are then facing the wrong way with your back exposed.

Now you can either get really good at that throw and learn a bunch of adjusted versions. (I like to over rotate) or just do a safer easier to learn throw like a double leg where the defence to the couner is basically keeping your head up.

So you can quite often see these kind of weird hip throws in Beej.

 

[Alan Smithee]

No the oponant just slips his hips out. And the throw fails. A failed throw isn't always the end of the world unless you are then facing the wrong way with your back exposed.

Now you can either get really good at that throw and learn a bunch of adjusted versions. (I like to over rotate) or just do a safer easier to learn throw like a double leg where the defence to the couner is basically keeping your head up.

Point is, he is not getting choked in an o-goshi. He is failing an o-goshi and then leaving himself in an exposed position. Two completely different things. Anything you do which does not "connect" leaves you perceptible to counters.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The hip throw and head lock should not go together.

- The hip throw is to lift your opponent's body up.
- The head lock is to press your opponent's head down.

Both force vectors contradict to each other.

[/QUOTE]

 

[drop bear]

Point is, he is not getting choked in a o-goshi. He is failing an o-goshi and then leaving himself in an exposed position. Two completely different things. Anything you do which does not "connect" leaves you perceptible to counters.

Yeah but there is hierarchy of position. So a failed ogoshi leaves your back exposed when a failed double leg doesn't. (Or technically hip bump or whizzer in that sort of position.)

And so then you make the choice do you risk your back taken on a failed throw or go for something else and maby end up back in a fifty fifty.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Yeah but there is hierarchy of position. So a failed ogoshi leaves your back exposed when a failed double leg doesn't. (Or technically hip bump or whizzer in that sort of position.)

And so then you make the choice do you risk your back taken on a failed throw or go for something else and maby end up back in a fifty fifty.

You can have a successful double leg (meaning it connects) and still get guillotined, even going down with him to the ground. That's a huge difference. If the o-goshi connects and you have competence, the person is getting tossed.

 

[drop bear]

The hip throw and head lock should not go together.

- The hip throw is to lift your opponent's body up.
- The head lock is to press your opponent's head down.

Both force vectors contradict to each other.

[/QUOTE]

If you push a person's head down and hips up at the same time they will probably fall over.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you push a person's head down and hips up at the same time they will probably fall over.

Since a

- short person can't reach to a tall person's head, hip throw is designed to be used by a short person to throw a tall person (lower body control).
- tall person can't reach to a short person's waist, head lock is designed to be used by a tall person to throw a short person (upper body control).

 

[drop bear]

You can have a successful double leg (meaning it connects) and still get guillotined, even going down with him to the ground. That's a huge difference. If the o-goshi connects and you have competence, the person is getting tossed.

Yes but a guillotine isn't as bad as having your back taken.

Apart from the defence to a guillotine from a double leg is looking up, apart from if you get caught in a guillotine and escape the guard you are in a dominant position and can von flue choke the guy and apart from even if you get caught in guard you have top position and gab generally fight your way out.

You will at no point get suplexed. Which is quite simply to be avoided because it sucks.

Ian Bone MMA-Fitness Coach

 

[drop bear]

Since a

- short person can't reach to a tall person's head, hip throw is designed to be used by a short person to throw a tall person.
- tall person can't reach to a short person's waist, head lock is designed to used by a tall person to throw a short person.

You know knees bend right? It makes people different heights.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You know knees bend right? It makes people different heights.

It makes no sense for a 9 feet tall guy to apply upward force vector hip throw on a 4 feet short guy.

"Hip throw" is also called "waist lift" because the upward force vector.

The

- ancient method is to use your hip to bounce your opponent's belly up.
- modern method is to wrap your arm around your opponent's waist and lift him up.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Yes but a guillotine isn't as bad as having your back taken.

That is true, and an experienced practitioner has a good chance of escaping them, but it still remains true that a successful double leg can realistically result in counter sub, while a successful O-goshi cannot.

 

[drop bear]

That is true, and an experienced practitioner has a good chance of escaping them, but it still remains true that a successful double leg can realistically result in counter sub, while a successful O-goshi cannot.

Yeah but you have to be successful. And guys like Dan Kelly have the issue that he is not always successful.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Yeah but you have to be successful. And guys like Dan Kelly have the issue that he is not always successful.

That is not the fault of the technique but the practitioner failing the technique. The double leg counter is the fault/drawback of the technique because it lends itself to people countering with the guillotine, which is not super hard to escape but I would not bet on it

 

[drop bear]

That is not the fault of the technique but the practitioner failing the technique. The double leg counter is the fault/drawback of the technique because it lends itself to people countering with the guillotine, which is not super hard to escape but I would not bet on it

What you are describing is called a hail Mary. Where you put all your chips down at once and hope you pull your super move off Or you are basically done.

As fun a concept as that is it is generally frowned upon by most coaches who would rather you go for techniques with more rewards and less risk.

So I have done that kind of thing where I had 30 seconds left in a comp and pulled off a sacrifice throw. But I had exhausted pretty much every other option by the time I got there.