How many of you BJJ guys train hip throws (Ogashi)?

[Hanzou]

Point is, he is not getting choked in an o-goshi. He is failing an o-goshi and then leaving himself in an exposed position. Two completely different things. Anything you do which does not "connect" leaves you perceptible to counters.

You can still get choked after a failed hip throw while standing. I call it the spider monkey because some a-hole jumps on your back and makes your life hell.

The point is if you screw up the hip throw, it's open season because you've given someone your back, which is probably the most dominant position in grappling. You might as well put a "please submit me" sign on your back, because anyone who knows what they're doing will capitalize on your screw up.

Like DB said, there's safer takedowns. The DLT is so common because its relatively low risk, and pretty easy to pull off.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes but a guillotine isn't as bad as having your back taken.

I think it should be the other way around. If someone

- takes my back, I can have many counters.
- puts a reverse head lock (guillotine) on me, his body weight can crash on top of my neck until I'm flat on the ground. No matter how strong that I'm, my neck is not strong enough to handle his full body weight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can still get choked after a failed hip throw while standing.

This is why IMO the head lock is better than the hip throw. Instead of giving your opponent a chance to choke you. You can choke him first. Before your arm can lock on your opponent's head, your forearm can hit on the back of his head and knock him out half way already. Head lock has integrated the striking into the throw and hit throw has not. The hip throw is more sport than combat. In a fist flying environment, the hip throw is too civilized and conservative.

For any throw, if you enter through the mirror stance angle (you have right forward, your opponent has left forward), your opponent can't take your back.

 

[Hanzou]

This is why IMO the head lock is better than the hip throw. Instead of giving your opponent a chance to choke you. You can choke him first. Before your arm can lock on your opponent's head, your forearm can hit on the back of his head and knock him out half way already. Head lock has integrated the striking into the throw and hit throw has not. The hip throw is more sport than combat. In a fist flying environment, the hip throw is too civilized and conservative.

For any throw, if you enter through the mirror stance angle (you have right forward, your opponent has left forward), your opponent can't take your back.

The headlock is actually easier to counter than the hip throw. It's one of the first counter moves a white belt learns in Bjj, and it's probably that way in other MAs.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The headlock is actually easier to counter than the hip throw.

There are over 20 different ways to counter a "head lock". But if you can crash your opponent's spine "side way" (not forward), none of his counter will work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can't. It's beyond my comprehension how you would allow that. So I'll have to ask you instead how bad you have you be.

Spoken with a clear lack of understanding.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It makes no sense for a 9 feet tall guy to apply upward force vector hip throw on a 4 feet short guy.

"Hip throw" is also called "waist lift" because the upward force vector.

The

- ancient method is to use your hip to bounce your opponent's belly up.
- modern method is to wrap your arm around your opponent's waist and lift him up.

That's overly binary. Nearly everyone ever born, at adult height, is between those two measures. I can hip throw people shorter than me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but you have to be successful. And guys like Dan Kelly have the issue that he is not always successful.

Agreed. I think, with reliability factored in (the chance of getting it successfully), risk is higher for the hip throw. I still prefer them, but I feel less threatened by them, too.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can hip throw people shorter than me.

Of course you can. But you are not taking advantage on the nature physics.

The following are natural physics.

- A tall person apply foot sweep on a short guy.
- A short guy uses shoulder throw on a tall guy.
- A strong guy uses casting throw on a light weight guy.
- ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can hip throw people shorter than me.

You have to be strong to throw your opponent by "casting".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course you can. But you are not taking advantage on the nature physics.

The following are natural physics.

- A tall person apply foot sweep on a short guy.
- A short guy uses shoulder throw on a tall guy.
- A strong guy uses casting throw on a light weight guy.
- ...

If you've ever been thrown well in a hip throw by someone taller (at the hip), you know there's an advantage to being able to get in under someone and send them flying.

Oh, and hip throws and shoulder throws on someone much taller become easy to counter. There's a range - from a bit shorter to somewhat taller - where it's pretty easily accessible. Outside that range, not so much.

You're being binary about this. Someone an inch shorter at the hip doesn't present much different challenge for those throws.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You have to be strong to throw your opponent by "casting".

I rarely cast. Just not much part of my training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You're being binary about this.

Sometime MA discussion has to be binary and you have to choose side. If I say,

-"Do whatever you think is right for you."
- "Everything is just a trade off.
- "There is no absolute right, and there is no absolute wrong."
- "Sometime right is wrong, and sometime wrong is right."
- "I don't like to ague. most of the time I just have no option."
- ...

You may say, "If you shut up, nobody will think that you are mute."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sometime MA discussion has to be binary and you have to choose side. If I say,

-"Do whatever you think is right for you."
- "Everything is just a trade off.
- "There is no absolute right, and there is no absolute wrong."
- "Sometime right is wrong, and sometime wrong is right."
- "I don't like to ague. most of the time I just have no option."
- ...

You may say, "If you shut up, nobody will think that you are mute."

That's a false dichotomy, John. It's possible to recognize that nuance exists without accepting everything without question.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You're being binary about this.

Do you agree with the following binary statement.

- Narrow stance is risky for double legs and foot sweep.
- Wide stance is risky for single leg and leg spring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you agree with the following binary statement.

- Narrow stance is risky for double legs and foot sweep.
- Wide stance is risky for single leg and leg spring.

I agree with it as a general rule. I don’t think it’s always entirely binary - there are many more factors at play.

 

[Martial D]

I can't. It's beyond my comprehension how you would allow that. So I'll have to ask you instead how bad you have you be.

You have to be SO bad that you would try it on a resisting opponent in a dynamic situation where you can't perfectly predict the other guys every step.

 

[wab25]

They might not be as safe as double and single leg take downs... but they are fun to watch!!!

Here are some more... okay some of these are wrestling throws as well, but a good throw is a good throw, is a good throw...

That allen wrench might not be your go to, works every where tool... but when you have a problem that it can solve, you are very glad to have one.

 

[JP3]

The hip throw and head lock should not go together.

- The hip throw is to lift your opponent's body up.
- The head lock is to press your opponent's head down.

Both force vectors contradict to each other.

[/QUOTE]
Nailed the answer, KFW.

There IS a throw that "looks like" you're using a headlock to hip throw the opponent. Koshi guruma (head wheel). Entry is just like O-goshi with the lead arm taking the off-balance, entering leg placing almost exactly where you'd place it for O-goshi. But, rear/power hand slides up and over the opponent's near shoulder, around the back of the neck and down the other side of the neck into what we traditionally call the headlock position.

To do the trow right, it's not "Hips Up, Head Down." It's a twisting, torque, rotational vector applied down the line (I know it's not straight) of the spine.

Once they go up at the hips, you "could" add some extra tobasco to it and pop your own hips, but it's not necessary. That's just be for show, or to be a d**k.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The under hook is more suitable for hip throw. The nice thing about the under hook is you only need to use one arm to lift under your opponent's shoulder.