How important is standing meditation to someone's tai chi practice?

[kubrick]

"Standing-on-stake is the highest principle, the greatest secret of martial arts"- Paul Dong in his book Empty Force

How important do you think standing meditation is? I am a beginner (one year Yang style and just started Wu style) and I would like to introduce a meditative aspect to my tai chi. I asked my instructor about standing meditation and he was rather dismissive about its importance. This contradicts many of the books I have read, which express sentiments more like the quote above.

So I don't really understand how to do standing meditation, or why to do standing meditation. I would appreciate any thoughts you guys have. Thanks

 

[seasoned]

It is all about the mind, and the effect it has on our body. The mind controls our body, and outside influence, controls an unconditioned mind. We need to first condition our mind under calm situations and then advance to a more turbulent atmosphere, while still maintaining that tranquil state. In other words learn to chill out. J

 

[Formosa Neijia]

"Standing-on-stake is the highest principle, the greatest secret of martial arts"- Paul Dong in his book Empty Force

How important do you think standing meditation is? I am a beginner (one year Yang style and just started Wu style) and I would like to introduce a meditative aspect to my tai chi. I asked my instructor about standing meditation and he was rather dismissive about its importance. This contradicts many of the books I have read, which express sentiments more like the quote above.

So I don't really understand how to do standing meditation, or why to do standing meditation. I would appreciate any thoughts you guys have. Thanks

It can be important but some people overemphasize it. If you're doing the taijiquan in a certain way already, then standing is redundant.

Standing itself is emphasized because it's easy to teach and gets people to slow down. It's good for that.

But many martial arts are based on movement and standing too much will negatively affect your movement skills.

The bottom line is to pay attention to how it's used in your lineage. If it's a major point, then spend time doing it. If it isn't, then some other part of the system or taiji paradigm may be used in place of it. So if you do a lot of standing when your instructor feels it isn't important, then you may need to listen to his advice instead. He may want you to work on something else or may have an equivalent training that you'll miss.

 

[kubrick]

The bottom line is to pay attention to how it's used in your lineage ... if you do a lot of standing when your instructor feels it isn't important, then you may need to listen to his advice instead. He may want you to work on something else or may have an equivalent training that you'll miss.

I think that is exactly the case. Thanks for your replies.

 

[ggg214]

standing stake is one way to train your body structure, to strong your low part of your body, such as your hips, your waist, your legs.
meditation in standing stake is thought to make the training more effective.
taiji, is also thought as a moving standing-stake. every movement is a single standing-on-stake.

 

[kubrick]

taiji, is also thought as a moving standing-stake. every movement is a single standing-on-stake.

Thanks. How should I work towards this? Do I just keep doing the form over and over?

 

[Formosa Neijia]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggg214
taiji, is also thought as a moving standing-stake. every movement is a single standing-on-stake.

Thanks. How should I work towards this? Do I just keep doing the form over and over?

I would be a bit careful with that. Some styles of taiji talk about every movement being like single standing on stake. But others describe it differently.

Again, talk to your teacher about this. If your style doesn't emphasize this then you're about to go off on a tangent that will put you at odds with your style. You could end up missing what your style and teacher have to teach.

Generic advice is never as good as specific if it gets you off rack.

 

[mograph]

With all due respect, do any of you guys actually do Zhan Zhuang?

 

[ggg214]

With all due respect, do any of you guys actually do Zhan Zhuang?

me!
in my two and a half years of training, the biggest part of my training is zhan zhuang. but now i have quit it, just because taiji is too complilcated for a beginner of CMA. and i find a great teacher in another style of CMA.

 

[ggg214]

i said each movement of taiji form is a single zhan zhuang, because i have known that in old days of taiji training, teachers taught their disciples in this way: each movement had six stops, each stop must stay still in a time as 3-6 breathes. and i know a person near my place has trained in this way.he took at least one or two years to complete learning one form of taiji.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

i said each movement of taiji form is a single zhan zhuang, because i have known that in old days of taiji training, teachers taught their disciples in this way: each movement had six stops, each stop must stay still in a time as 3-6 breathes. and i know a person near my place has trained in this way.he took at least one or two years to complete learning one form of taiji.

Yes, and it's a legitimate way of training. But not everyone does this. For teachers that emphasize movement, that way of training will be detrimental to the process.

The taiji form starts with "kai taiji" or opening taiji for a reason. You start the form with stillness and then move through the various expresssions of yin and yang in the form before you end it again with stillness. That's why all taiji forms also end with "he taiji" or closing taiji.

If you're sticking a lot of stopping points into the form, then you're impeding the flow. Some styles may teach that temporarily to build skills but IMO it eventually has to be let go.

 

[Tai G]

Some styles may teach that temporarily to build skills but IMO it eventually has to be let go.

I think that while learning a form this is done to build up lots of leg strength and learn to root. Once you've been studying awhile and have a solid root, move on. Of course in our tradition there is plenty of silk reeling excercise which replaces this way of training forms, accomplishing the same goal.
We begin every class with some light qigong/stretching, move into 5 mins of zhan zhuang ( standing ) and then silk reeling, and then everyone breaks up into their various forms. We always close class with another 5 mins of zhan zhuang.

 

[mograph]

Five minutes isn't enough. Maybe it calms the practitioner, but for real physical changes, do it for an hour: 15 minutes in each of four positions.

Now that's Zhan Zhuang.

 

[mograph]

But many martial arts are based on movement and standing too much will negatively affect your movement skills.

I respectfully disagree, Formosa Neijia. If you do Zhan Zhuang long enough (1 hour a week for two years, at least) your stamina will increase. It has helped my squash game, to a point where I surprise much younger players with my "jets", or ability to run down difficult shots. My newfound stamina is nowhere near what it would be if I didn't do Zhan Zhuang. I'll increase the time standing and see what happens.

Regarding movement, an important aspect of Zhan Zhuang is visualization. Here, try this: hold both hands in front of you, facing each other as if holding a basketball. Slowly move the hands closer, then farther apart. Make the amplitude (movement) maybe three inches, frequency maybe 1 second. Gradually speed up the frequency to maybe 1/3 to 1/4 second, and let the amplitude slowly shrink to the smallest distance you can feel, then keep going. Eventually you might feel a very slight vibration or humming feeling in your hands.

This is part of the theory of Yiquan. The humming feeling resolves the rooted/dynamic debate: root for stability or be loose for quick movement? In Yiquan, with enough Zhan Zhuang and force-testing, you should be able to move quite quickly and easily, yet be rooted to deliver power. Once I get there, I'll get back to you.

It may be that the only teachers who recommend Zhan Zhuang teach Yiquan -- that may explain why it hasn't been widely adopted by teachers of other arts. But I'd say that if you can find a Yiquan teacher, he/she may open your eyes to the possibilities of Zhan Zhuang.

My point is: try it for a few months, but for 45 minutes to an hour: four postures. Check Lam Kam Chuen's Way of Power book for the beginning postures. Stick it out and see for yourself.

 

[ggg214]

Yes, and it's a legitimate way of training. But not everyone does this. For teachers that emphasize movement, that way of training will be detrimental to the process.

The taiji form starts with "kai taiji" or opening taiji for a reason. You start the form with stillness and then move through the various expresssions of yin and yang in the form before you end it again with stillness. That's why all taiji forms also end with "he taiji" or closing taiji.

If you're sticking a lot of stopping points into the form, then you're impeding the flow. Some styles may teach that temporarily to build skills but IMO it eventually has to be let go.

this kind of training is aiming to gain a precise body structure in every movement. in CMA, power comes from the whole body, not parts of body. it requires that every second in your movement, you need your body in a way that it can burst your whole body's trength into your target.
as you said, this stops train can inped the flow of the form. it's only for building foundation of taiji kung fu.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

I respectfully disagree, Formosa Neijia. If you do Zhan Zhuang long enough (1 hour a week for two years, at least) your stamina will increase. It has helped my squash game, to a point where I surprise much younger players with my "jets", or ability to run down difficult shots. My newfound stamina is nowhere near what it would be if I didn't do Zhan Zhuang. I'll increase the time standing and see what happens.

Regarding movement, an important aspect of Zhan Zhuang is visualization. Here, try this: hold both hands in front of you, facing each other as if holding a basketball. Slowly move the hands closer, then farther apart. Make the amplitude (movement) maybe three inches, frequency maybe 1 second. Gradually speed up the frequency to maybe 1/3 to 1/4 second, and let the amplitude slowly shrink to the smallest distance you can feel, then keep going. Eventually you might feel a very slight vibration or humming feeling in your hands.

This is part of the theory of Yiquan. The humming feeling resolves the rooted/dynamic debate: root for stability or be loose for quick movement? In Yiquan, with enough Zhan Zhuang and force-testing, you should be able to move quite quickly and easily, yet be rooted to deliver power. Once I get there, I'll get back to you.

It may be that the only teachers who recommend Zhan Zhuang teach Yiquan -- that may explain why it hasn't been widely adopted by teachers of other arts. But I'd say that if you can find a Yiquan teacher, he/she may open your eyes to the possibilities of Zhan Zhuang.

My point is: try it for a few months, but for 45 minutes to an hour: four postures. Check Lam Kam Chuen's Way of Power book for the beginning postures. Stick it out and see for yourself.

That's fine. And you've presented an yiquan point of view very well. But my training is different.

For one, standing for any length of time can improve your stamina, especially if you're de-conditioned. But it doesn't train your movement skills. To gain those skills, you'll have to practice moving and a lot of it. Frankly speaking, I've never seen an yiquan person that impressed me with their movement. Just far too much time spent standing. Shili and fali, etc. IMO don't prepare someone as well as something like baguazhang. BGZ and taijiquan (at least as I do it) use it a moving root, not a fixed root. The trainings are similar but different.

Second, I don't use visualizations when standing or sitting. I think they're an impediment to progress. You're adding another layer of illusion when you should be stripping away things. BTW I don't need the visualization to feel anything. I can feel my qi largely because I have worked in the exact opposite direction -- stripping away what was unnecessary.

I think there's room for all these approaches. So how you train is fine if it gets you what you want. But again, standing IMO is promoted beyond it's usefulness. It's a good tool but not the be-all, end-all it gets touted as.

 

[mograph]

Formosa Neijia, the visualizations, like many training methods, are meant to be dropped once the student can feel the new sensations. They provide a bridge. Once crossed, the bridge is no longer needed. Nobody expects someone to fight while imagining they are holding balls in water.

Some may tout Zhan Zhuang as a be-all and end-all, but I don't. I believe it is a valuable supplement to any kind of martial training.

I'm sorry, but dismissing Zhan Zhuang without actually having given it a chance first-hand (standing past the point of discomfort) is like dismissing Taijiquan because it's practiced slowly.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was going to stay out of this and I will likely regret getting into it al all but here goes

The importance of standing meditation to taijiquan, if you are talking ONLY Zhan Zhuang depends on your goal, your style and your Sifu. My Sifu does not place a whole lot of importance on it but he does say it is a good thing if you want to do it. But yet I believe Yang Chengfu placed a lot of importance on Wuji over things like Zhan Zhuang, but I have to admit I am not 100% sure about that one.

However Standing Meditation is not only Zhan Zhuang in Taijiquan. Chen style appears to like standing in various taiji postures as well as Zhan Zhuang and then Chan Si Jin (which is not standing). My Sifu (Yang style) puts it this way; If your goal is what many have today of health and relaxation standing in a posture is not important at all. However if your goal is martial arts it is very important. It teaches you proper alignment, power flow, proper relaxation in the form and unifies movement.

Everyone will have there own view of standing based on their Sifu and experience and likely they will not all match.

For me I rather enjoy Zhan Zhaung and I did learn a few things from it as far as flow of energy form one part of the body to the other and I was able to apply that to my taiji but to be honest I get more out of doing the long form really really slow. But if you are going to train Zhan Zhuang and actually want to gain anything from it you are going to be standing there for at least 20 minutes more like 30 or greater. And before it is said, I don’t do Yiquan but I did do Xingyiquan and yes that is a rather Xingyiquan point of view. But even xingyiquan places more importance on Santi Shi over Zhan Zhaung. But this view of Zhan Zhaung is what worked for me…..your mileage may vary

 

[mograph]

I was going to stay out of this and I will likely regret getting into it al all but here goes

I was wondering where you were ...

For me I rather enjoy Zhan Zhaung and I did learn a few things from it as far as flow of energy form one part of the body to the other and I was able to apply that to my taiji but to be honest I get more out of doing the long form really really slow. But if you are going to train Zhan Zhuang and actually want to gain anything from it you are going to be standing there for at least 20 minutes more like 30 or greater. And before it is said, I don’t do Yiquan but I did do Xingyiquan and yes that is a rather Xingyiquan point of view. But even xingyiquan places more importance on Santi Shi over Zhan Zhaung. But this view of Zhan Zhaung is what worked for me…..your mileage may vary

I've appreciated your points of view as well as Formosa Neijia's over time, and this thread is no exception. I'm glad you've experienced it, and I'm also glad that you can get more out of doing the long form very slow. As for a Xingyiquan point of view, I train in the Han tradition of Yiquan, which is Xingyi based, so I think I understand where you're coming from.

However, from the other comments I've read, I was getting the impression that people were commenting on standing based on little or no experience with it, and as anyone who has done it for 30 minutes or greater can tell you, its benefits should not be judged by visual inspection or theoretical extrapolation such as "standing can only build a static root".

I wasn't saying that it's a be-all and end-all. Just "if you haven't tried it, don't knock it." That's all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I've appreciated your points of view as well as Formosa Neijia's over time, and this thread is no exception. I'm glad you've experienced it, and I'm also glad that you can get more out of doing the long form very slow. As for a Xingyiquan point of view, I train in the Han tradition of Yiquan, which is Xingyi based, so I think I understand where you're coming from.

I have to add something as it applies to Zhan Zhuang and the doing the long form slowly.

I cannot be certain however that what I am getting out of doing the long form slowly does not have its root in Zhan Zhuang training and it could just be that it was my Zhan Zhuang that opened a door to allow me to gain more from my long form. I have no way of knowing this since it was after my most recent stint with Zhan Zhuang I had some rather great things occur when I just let things flow and the long form went form about 18 minutes to 30. But I was also doing a lot of santi shi as well so who knows. Could be Zhan Zhuang, could be Santi Shi, could be slowing the long form down, could be all 3 or any combination or none.

However, from the other comments I've read, I was getting the impression that people were commenting on standing based on little or no experience with it, and as anyone who has done it for 30 minutes or greater can tell you, its benefits should not be judged by visual inspection or theoretical extrapolation such as "standing can only build a static root".

I wasn't saying that it's a be-all and end-all. Just "if you haven't tried it, don't knock it." That's all.

What can I say stance training and standing isn't for everyone, but I like it