How important is contact sparring in MA?

[Hanzou]

This discussion sort of emerged in the other thread, but I thought it was pretty off topic there, and really deserved its own thread.

I'm a pretty firm believer in contact sparring; Sparring in which you actually hit or grapple with another person. I feel that the only way you can learn to hit or grapple with someone is to actually hit or grapple someone.

Does anyone feel that you can develop such skills without contact sparring, or no sparring at all?

 

[Danny T]

For this discussion: Define 'sparring'.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

This discussion sort of emerged in the other thread, but I thought it was pretty off topic there, and really deserved its own thread.

I'm a pretty firm believer in contact sparring; Sparring in which you actually hit or grapple with another person. I feel that the only way you can learn to hit or grapple with someone is to actually hit or grapple someone.

Does anyone feel that you can develop such skills without contact sparring, or no sparring at all?

Define contact.

If you mean never hitting anything or anyone, I don't and couldn't train in a system like that so can't comment.

 

[jezr74]

This discussion sort of emerged in the other thread, but I thought it was pretty off topic there, and really deserved its own thread.

I'm a pretty firm believer in contact sparring; Sparring in which you actually hit or grapple with another person. I feel that the only way you can learn to hit or grapple with someone is to actually hit or grapple someone.

Does anyone feel that you can develop such skills without contact sparring, or no sparring at all?

I think it's something that can be used to enhance your skills. But I also think that going from nothing, to striking a bag in the basement enhances your skills as well.

So IMO, technically you can develop skills with no contact sparring. It's kind of like doing a first aid course, you develop the skills needed to perform first aid and that may be all you need, practicing CPR on a dummy etc. But you will get great benefit from experience in the field.

So I think you may have inadvertently injected some contention already with starting with "How important is sparring in MA" to your last line "develop such skills without contact sparring, or no sparring at all?", you may have people backed in to a corner already and now they want you to define the detail. This thread may be perceived as laying a trap.

 

[Tez3]

I would say it's every bit as important, if not in some ways more so, to learn to be hit. You can learn to strike even to some extent to grapple if you have a grapple dummy ( not satisfactory though) without ever touching someone but it's impossible to get used to being hit, punched kicked etc. Of course you can say well, I block everything or I'm too fast but the truth is at some point someone will catch you or in a SD situation there may be a sucker punch. So often people who haven't been hit react to it by freezing, sometimes they get angry and go off on one, losing your temper never helps. You cannot defend yourself if you are frozen or in a red mist so sparring is important, or at the very least some sort of training to enable you to react appropriately to being attacked. Even if you are armed with a weapon, it will do you no good if you are so shocked by being struck you can't use it.

 

[jezr74]

Forgot to answer the subject question, I do think it's important. I'm personally keen to put what I've learnt into sparring, stand-up and ground. I hope it will show gaps\strengths my in own skills so I can adapt and focus where it's needed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If

- someone tries to knock/throw you down 1000 times and you are still standing, the probability that his 1001th try will work on you will be very low.
- you have knock/throw your opponent down 1000 times, the probability that your 1001th try will work on him will be very high.

It's just "probability theory" and nothing magic about it.

 

[Hanzou]

Define contact.

Touching/Hitting another person.

If you mean never hitting anything or anyone, I don't and couldn't train in a system like that so can't comment.

Yep, that's exactly what I mean.

 

[Buka]

No contact sparring is like no contact sex. IMO, if it's no contact, it isn't sparring.

 

[Hanzou]

I think it's something that can be used to enhance your skills. But I also think that going from nothing, to striking a bag in the basement enhances your skills as well.

So IMO, technically you can develop skills with no contact sparring. It's kind of like doing a first aid course, you develop the skills needed to perform first aid and that may be all you need, practicing CPR on a dummy etc. But you will get great benefit from experience in the field.

So I think you may have inadvertently injected some contention already with starting with "How important is sparring in MA" to your last line "develop such skills without contact sparring, or no sparring at all?", you may have people backed in to a corner already and now they want you to define the detail. This thread may be perceived as laying a trap.

Well since my MA is heavily based on heavy contact sparring, I simply can't imagine an MA functioning without it.

It would be like if you have one Bjj exponent, let's call him Coco, doing prearranged forms of various chokes, positions, and holds, and somehow he made it to black belt doing this, and then he fought your typically trained Bjj black belt who does an extremely high amount of contact sparring.

Coco would get destroyed, probably very quickly because (IMO) he lacks the experience of actually applying his techniques.

However, my viewpoint is colored by my personal experiences. I'm sure there are those that disagree.

 

[jezr74]

Well since my MA is heavily based on heavy contact sparring, I simply can't imagine an MA functioning without it.

It would be like if you have one Bjj exponent, let's call him Coco, doing prearranged forms of various chokes, positions, and holds, and somehow he made it to black belt doing this, and then he fought your typically trained Bjj black belt who does an extremely high amount of contact sparring.

Coco would get destroyed, probably very quickly because (IMO) he lacks the experience of actually applying his techniques.

However, my viewpoint is colored by my personal experiences. I'm sure there are those that disagree.

Yeah, definitely. Would you call Coco less skilled or less experienced? Do you see a distinction between skill, technicality and experience for that matter?

 

[blindsage]

Contact should be required, sparring not so much. There are a number of ways contact can be included, sparring is just one, and not necessarily the best.

 

[RTKDCMB]

No contact sparring is like no contact sex. IMO, if it's no contact, it isn't sparring.

You mean safer and less chance of having an accident.

 

[Buka]

You know, this might be a more difficult question to answer than it appears. I don't know about every Martial Art, I don't think any of us do. Maybe it's yes for some and no for others. Not the way I see it, but I'm just one more opinion in a world of opinions.

But, damn, it's just so much fun.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hmm - now that I think about it, coming up with a precise and exhaustive definition of sparring is kind of tricky. It's not really a simulation of a typical violent encounter, although it can have resemblance to certain kinds of real fights.

I'll go ahead and define sparring as a non-choreographed exercise for two or more partners where each person, within certain constraints, is trying to overcome the other person's technique with their own and where the outcome is not pre-determined. There are some holes in this definition, but it's close enough to work with.

This can cover a lot of ground - grappling for a submission, no-contact "tag" striking, judo randori, hard-contact MMA sparring, asymmetric drills (one person only strikes, the other only grapples, etc)., weapon sparring, and much more. It would not include the typical aikido "randori" where attackers come in with unscripted attacks and the defender is expected to "defeat" them.

Like any form of training, sparring has advantages and also disadvantages which need to be balanced out with other exercises. The specifics of those advantages and disadvantages vary with the form of sparring. I do feel that some of the advantages will not be replicated with any other type of training.

I do feel that at least some degree of contact is vital to getting the benefits of sparring. No-contact sparring will develop a host of bad habits, including improper distancing and unrealistic body mechanics.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Contact is essential. You need to feel contact both in your striking and when you get hit. This can come through sparring which is important but also in drills.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah, definitely. Would you call Coco less skilled or less experienced? Do you see a distinction between skill, technicality and experience for that matter?

I would consider Coco to be both less skilled and less experienced, because I consider both to be related. You become more skilled through experience.

 

[Buka]

Hmm - now that I think about it, coming up with a precise and exhaustive definition of sparring is kind of tricky. It's not really a simulation of a typical violent encounter, although it can have resemblance to certain kinds of real fights.

I'll go ahead and define sparring as a non-choreographed exercise for two or more partners where each person, within certain constraints, is trying to overcome the other person's technique with their own and where the outcome is not pre-determined. There are some holes in this definition, but it's close enough to work with.

This can cover a lot of ground - grappling for a submission, no-contact "tag" striking, judo randori, hard-contact MMA sparring, asymmetric drills (one person only strikes, the other only grapples, etc)., weapon sparring, and much more. It would not include the typical aikido "randori" where attackers come in with unscripted attacks and the defender is expected to "defeat" them.

Like any form of training, sparring has advantages and also disadvantages which need to be balanced out with other exercises. The specifics of those advantages and disadvantages vary with the form of sparring. I do feel that some of the advantages will not be replicated with any other type of training.

I do feel that at least some degree of contact is vital to getting the benefits of sparring. No-contact sparring will develop a host of bad habits, including improper distancing and unrealistic body mechanics.

Tony, when you mention the disadvantages of sparring do you mean if sparring was the only training done? Or disadvantages in another way? And I'm only referring to contact sparring as I believe no contact sparring is detrimental to everything.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Tony, when you mention the disadvantages of sparring do you mean if sparring was the only training done? Or disadvantages in another way? And I'm only referring to contact sparring as I believe no contact sparring is detrimental to everything.

Both. A couple of potential drawbacks to sparring are a) the development of a "dueling" mentality and b) "playing to the rules" (where participants take advantage of the rules to use tactics that would be suboptimal in a real fight). Both of these tendencies can be compensated for with other forms of training.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you are doing an art that requires contact sparring like kickboxing then it is essential, if you are doing a self defense art then it depends on what emphasis you place on it. If you are doing a grappling art then it is unavoidable. Even when your art is a non-contact art it is not a matter of making no physical contact whatsoever. You still have to block and deflect strikes or you may get hit, you still have to physically perform throws and joint locks and you still have to learn to get out of holds applied to you during self defense practice.