How do you Spar?

[Black Tiger Fist]

Just wanted to post a quick thread ,so i got to thinking. So many TCMA ppl seem to spar or fight like a kickboxer why?

In answering give your reasons why you think this happens ,also how do you yourself spar.

There is no right or wrong answer i'm just interested in seeing everyone's response ,then i'll give my thoughts a bit later.

jeff

 

[clfsean]

We don't. Right now all we do are partnered drills & combos. None of the people at my school (me too) have been practicing CLF long enough to put the pads on & use kung fu instead of kickboxing.

Once all of us get to a point of using CLF as a no thought fighting tool, then we spar. Otherwise, it'd be kickboxing & we don't kickbox. :mp5:

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

We don't. Right now all we do are partnered drills & combos. None of the people at my school (me too) have been practicing CLF long enough to put the pads on & use kung fu instead of kickboxing.

Once all of us get to a point of using CLF as a no thought fighting tool, then we spar. Otherwise, it'd be kickboxing & we don't kickbox. :mp5:

Sean,

Just curious how long is not training long?

And whom do you train CLF with?

just asking no big deal if you don't want to answer.

jeff

 

[clfsean]

Sean,

Just curious how long is not training long?

And whom do you train CLF with?

just asking no big deal if you don't want to answer.

jeff

Hey Jeff... nah I don't mind answering.

I've only been training in CLF since March. Most of sifu's students are there a little over a year.

While I've got a pretty extensive background in MA, my fighting skills are primarily kickboxing based. What sifu wants us to do is when we spar, use actual techniques we learn & drill, use the footwork that southern CMA are famous for, use engery listening skills when bridging or tying up to handle the person instead of trying to out muscle them, etc...

My sifu's name is Chad Myers. He's Futsan Hung Sing CLF under Dino Salvatera of San Fran. He's the lineage holder in America for the Hung Sing Goon America & the only authorized rep for the World Hung Sing CLF Federation from Futsan China here in the States. He's studied CLF since the 50's & has a pretty extensive (street) fighting background growing up in SF's Chinatown in the 50's & 60's.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Hey Jeff... nah I don't mind answering.

I've only been training in CLF since March. Most of sifu's students are there a little over a year.

While I've got a pretty extensive background in MA, my fighting skills are primarily kickboxing based. What sifu wants us to do is when we spar, use actual techniques we learn & drill, use the footwork that southern CMA are famous for, use engery listening skills when bridging or tying up to handle the person instead of trying to out muscle them, etc...

My sifu's name is Chad Myers. He's Futsan Hung Sing CLF under Dino Salvatera of San Fran. He's the lineage holder in America for the Hung Sing Goon America & the only authorized rep for the World Hung Sing CLF Federation from Futsan China here in the States. He's studied CLF since the 50's & has a pretty extensive (street) fighting background growing up in SF's Chinatown in the 50's & 60's.

Ahhh ok

I haven't heard of your sifu ,but i've sure heard alot about your sigung. It all makes sense what your sifu's saying.

jeff

 

[clfsean]

Ahhh ok

I haven't heard of your sifu ,but i've sure heard alot about your sigung. It all makes sense what your sifu's saying.

jeff

Yeah my Sifu is just now kinda coming to the surface. You can get more info at www.hungsingatl.com about the school & all.

 

[7starmantis]

Just wanted to post a quick thread ,so i got to thinking. So many TCMA ppl seem to spar or fight like a kickboxer why?

In answering give your reasons why you think this happens ,also how do you yourself spar.

There is no right or wrong answer i'm just interested in seeing everyone's response ,then i'll give my thoughts a bit later.

jeff

I think its often like this, because alot of cma techniques are a bit akward for the body, and until they are learned and "mastered" it is hard to actually use them in a fighting scenario. Its almost instinctive to go to fighting like kickboxing especially when fighting against someone who uses that style. You have to train your body and mind to stick to your principles. Its not human nature to move in close to someone who is a great fighter and is really getting the best of you, you naturally want to get away. I think that is one reason people tend to abandond their cma techniques for more "safer" approach.

I spar different than alot of people. We do mainly chi sau or jeem leem for our sparring in our school. We start very slow. We tend to put more importance on stealing your opponants "center" than other mantis or kung fu schools. We take in more taiji principles to our fighting as well. Heavy yielding, chin na, and feel are taught. We gradually increase the speed and power with which we play jeem leem or chi sau. The reason we fight this way is to increase our ability to "stick" and "feel" in a real fighting scenario. In the advanced levels, our chi sau is almost 100% speed and 85 to 90% power. Its more realistic and we wear no pads. This is why its important to really trust your kung fu brothers/sisters you play with. If its a new person, I'll play with them because its slow and on a lower level, but if I dont trust them, I wont play at all.

7sm

 

[RHD]

:soapbox:

It really pisses me off when I see "supposed" kung fu fighting like modified kickboxing. To me it's a clear indicator that only forms have been learned, and that the instructors aren't transmitting the essence of thier system.

One major problem is that kung fu (in many schools) is taught mainly by progressing from one form to the next. This is wrong. A student must understand the underlying, driving principles and concepts of their system. These must be drilled hands on, continuously. In addition, the techiques from the forms need to be extracted, studied, and drilled in thier many applications both from a self defense and fighting aspect. If this isn't done, then there is little choice but to inject fighting technique from somewhere else into the training repetoire, resulting in a failure to be proficient in one's own style.

The real hard part is that there is almost no venue for competitively using your kung fu as it is meant to be. Every tournament I've ever been to has rules that literally limit the sparring competitions to sport karated style point fighting, even the so called "continuous" fighting that has come to light in recent years. San Da/San Shou/Lei Tei fighting is also extremely limiting. It's really just kickboxing with takedowns...There's no allowance for the hand techniques of traditional kung fu wich includes grabbing, sticking, trapping, long swinging strikes, etc...All of those things are damn near impossible with boxing gloves on, and most of them are considered illeagal.

Sorry for all the negativity...it's a passionate subject for me. The good news is there are some very good kung fu people out there who practice like they mean it, and though they are not necessarily public or mainstream, they "keep it real".

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

Very good post, it's true that many schools learn one form and progress to the next, its sad really. Its limiting your knowledge, skill, and learning to go about it that way. In my book, if you do not know the applications and principles of a form and can apply them in a fighting situation, then you dont really know the form.

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Very good post, it's true that many schools learn one form and progress to the next, its sad really. Its limiting your knowledge, skill, and learning to go about it that way. In my book, if you do not know the applications and principles of a form and can apply them in a fighting situation, then you dont really know the form.

7sm

EXACTLY!!!

Sadly there are too many schools teaching this way in CMA today.

It saddens me when i see Hung Gar or other southern stylist learn nothing more than kickboxing to fight with. You actually have sifu that only teach their students to fight in that manner.

jeff

 

[brothershaw]

I agree with pretty much all that has been said. However remember that the kungfu you were learning isnt meant for competition fighting. You are supposed to hurt the person attacking you as quickly as possible with as much damage as possible to end the altercation. Even if ufc they are only trying to inflict enough pain to stop the match, and win but not permanently damage or break anything. For example for all the arm bars and joint locks they never go all the way and break anything which would give them a quicker win.
That said people can still go to tournaments and try to stick to thier guns trying their kungfu moves against resisting , and kickboxing oppenents. As long as you go with the mindset that you will probably lose or be dq'ed but its a learning experience its cool.
In other words people go to tournaments loooking to win, not necesarily practice what they are supposed to be learning. So they do sloppy kickboxing alot of the time, with minimal footwork, evasion,sticking, etc.

 

[brothershaw]

What is needed is almost a " fight club". Basically an informal and private get together of different stylists to practice thier styles against each other. Not a win / lose tournament but a regular way to try what you know, with no kickboxing allowed.

 

[Eldritch Knight]

We have one at my school. Essentially, a small group of highly dedicated practitioners doing full speed, medium power sparring. No kickboxing allowed, if not for bad style, but that its fairly conducive to sweeps and grapples. We'll stop every once in a while and analyze an effective attack or counter. Its definetely a huge help in understanding the strengths and weaknesses of specific styles.

 

[RHD]

We have one at my school. Essentially, a small group of highly dedicated practitioners doing full speed, medium power sparring. No kickboxing allowed, if not for bad style, but that its fairly conducive to sweeps and grapples. We'll stop every once in a while and analyze an effective attack or counter. Its definetely a huge help in understanding the strengths and weaknesses of specific styles.

Sounds like fun. Count me it!


Mike

 

[RHD]

EXACTLY!!!

It saddens me when i see Hung Gar or other southern stylist learn nothing more than kickboxing to fight with. You actually have sifu that only teach their students to fight in that manner.

jeff

Not in my class! :barf:

Mike

 

[woodyd_69]

Hi everyone new to the board here. I have three classes of HUng Gar kung fu every week and the first two days are forms days which includes learning the form and what each individual form section represents in a fight. The third day is "fighting" day. This is where we take certain moves from a form and drill with them and show how it can be used in various ways. Then with the last 10 mins of class or so we spar with gloves and head gear and are instructed to use some of the techniques we have learned in class to better understand their uses. Its a pretty good system to get your understanding of the forms and the actual use of them in a "real" scenario.

 

[7starmantis]

On behalf of the MartialTalk staff, welcome to the boards! Its good to have you here, and I look forward to reading more of your posts.

7sm

 

[woodyd_69]

thank you, i havent gotten enough, im trying to read it all to get myself caught up!

 

[Blooming Lotus]

hmmmm.some interesting comments. In several nth shaolin schools ( particularly one's affiliated with monks or their disciples) which I have seen and left because of these and other little comprimises, you find alot of this form over spar to the total omission of the latter. If you do a search on todays popular shaolin masters, no doubt Shi De Yangs name will crop up. He is reputedly extremely skilled in kungfu , yet at schools of his disciples you see the same form over spar policy. And you're right, most tcma and even just cma torunies are largely judged on form performance, or adapted with crucial elements removed for ring purposes, and yet to see a monk in action, you couldn't even begin to try to tell me he couldn't fight???

AS for gongfu played and trained the way it's meant to be used, I think there's a catch to that because, particularly in shaolin , " the way it's meant to be used " is in real life defence only, and even then the idea is not to use it largely because and particularly when you add internal aspects, there are aspects that you could never train full contact anyway. I have the same problem with dimmak and cavity striking, but looking at some MT, so hopefully in training that, I'll re-gear toward "play fighting" as opposed to street / real life defence training.

( that said though, have been to tagou shaolin martial arts academy and as yibanban ( soso) as it was , they did practice sanda ), but then again, they are not run by monks.

I'd really like to see some chi sao style at shaolin, but slight conflict of interest.

Like 7*m s comment on needing to trust the person, and I think most of us feel the same. Even so, after that, using non -dimmaking techs, If I see my opening and know ( through speed and skill assessment) that I could plant my strike sparring with someone who doesn't know pressure points, I loose interest. If I'm eyeing them off or lining them up, someone might be about to get hurt. If you don't know what you're defending and aren't a "real life " threat, I don't want to play ! Anyone else sparring with dimmak??? How are you doing that?
I'm fairly fortunate at the moment to have a few days with my little brother, also a dimmak practioner and I think the best way to train / spar it is without connection or full application but rather trade off techs and apps with a fellow practioner only ( and preferabley one with an art / style that I don't have myself). Sounds silly, but I've always trained it like this, and when I needed it on several defence occassions in China, it did it's job. Go figure .

BL

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Hi everyone new to the board here. I have three classes of HUng Gar kung fu every week and the first two days are forms days which includes learning the form and what each individual form section represents in a fight. The third day is "fighting" day. This is where we take certain moves from a form and drill with them and show how it can be used in various ways. Then with the last 10 mins of class or so we spar with gloves and head gear and are instructed to use some of the techniques we have learned in class to better understand their uses. Its a pretty good system to get your understanding of the forms and the actual use of them in a "real" scenario.

Hey woodyd_69,

Welcome Aboard!

I'm just curious where and from whom do you study Hung Gar from?

I'm a Hung family member myself i study Hung Fut and Black Tiger.

jeff