How do we safeguard young girls when approached like this.....

[Tez3]

Firstly, a caveat. This is not a gender politics discussion, it's not about whether such groups as 'Incel' exist, though there is good evidence they do ( the site this came from was 'Incels.me', the poster was reported but whether any action was taken I don't know) the driver who mowed down people in Canada allegedly 'vowed loyalty' to them/one. At least one social media site has banned groups from posting. The point is that whether it's a group posting or an individual, this type of post is all over social media, it's inciting those who have the mindset or inclination to do this. The posts are also shared and don't die even if the originator is banned or even arrested/charged.

My point and my only point of posting this is to help find ways we can help the young girls who have already been affected by this ( I know two in my area, not just 'know of' actually know them personally) or how to warn and instruct girls about what they should do if they find themselves in this situation ( whether or not incited by these posts). The police in our area are aware and I know that the Home Office here have this in their sights and are attempting to 'do something', what they can do I don't know I'm not an IT expert. I have reason to know that this is more than a local problem, not even just a UK problem but most likely a worldwide problem, certainly it's on English speaking sites. I also know there is a lot of worry from parents as well as children about issues like this.

I have copied one of the posts, I specifically would like us to explore ways and means of helping girls, as many know I'm a Girl Guiding leader, if we can come up with good solutions I can share them widely. I have racked my brains hence my asking for help, it's not directly a self defence situation though it could be I imagine. It goes against the grain to allow someone to scare me but it's not me it's scaring but young girls so running away ( which is what my young friends did) seems a good idea though it's what the poster and his ilk want presumably.


I have kept the post to last deliberately, I have also just copied it rather than link it, to take away all comments on it made by various people to keep any political arguments out of it. ( some though suggest running away, some confronting the person)

so how do we protect and warn our children?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, there's nothing "harmless" (from his last sentence) about that. I don't know how to help that, other than to be the adult who steps in and interferes with his "fun".

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, there's nothing "harmless" (from his last sentence) about that. I don't know how to help that, other than to be the adult who steps in and interferes with his "fun".

That's my problem, what on earth can we actually do to protect girls as young as he's targeting. So frustrating. After I had this on my FB, I got a friend telling me her friend had this done to her then I had PMs from two others I know saying them too. All girls of 14 and 15.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's my problem, what on earth can we actually do to protect girls as young as he's targeting. So frustrating. After I had this on my FB, I got a friend telling me her friend had this done to her then I had PMs from two others I know saying them too. All girls of 14 and 15.

And it raises the quandary of what to teach. "Stranger danger" was a major theme in the US for a while, and actually led to problems (kids would no longer go to an adult for help if they got lost, for instance). Strangers are generally not a threat...but then there's people like this. And I don't believe for a moment that someone lacking empathy as much as he obviously does will not progress to more direct harm.

 

[Tez3]

And it raises the quandary of what to teach. "Stranger danger" was a major theme in the US for a while, and actually led to problems (kids would no longer go to an adult for help if they got lost, for instance). Strangers are generally not a threat...but then there's people like this. And I don't believe for a moment that someone lacking empathy as much as he obviously does will not progress to more direct harm.

The police here have taken descriptions and are doing everything from that point of view though if the man/men are found there can only be a warning because there's no proof anything has happened, but they aren't offering any sort of advice beyond the usual get to a shop, busy street etc thing. I can't blame them I can't think of much more than that and it galls me to think that it plays into their hands if 'just' scaring them is the point of their sick game.
I think too that it will go beyond 'just' scaring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The police here have taken descriptions and are doing everything from that point of view though if the man/men are found there can only be a warning because there's no proof anything has happened, but they aren't offering any sort of advice beyond the usual get to a shop, busy street etc thing. I can't blame them I can't think of much more than that and it galls me to think that it plays into their hands if 'just' scaring them is the point of their sick game.
I think too that it will go beyond 'just' scaring.

It's crap like this that makes me want to go vigilante sometimes.

 

[hoshin1600]

Serial rapists and killers do not become that way in an instant. It is a progression of smaller steps. By reading his post , this is clearly one of those steps for him.

 

[hoshin1600]

i do not know how applicable it would be for that age group but i am thinking about the girl logging in on her cell phone to face book live and turning, point the phone at him and confronting the man.
"your on facebook live,,,why are you following me?"

i would advise all parents for teens to have a cell phone. they need to be linked into another family members account with GPS tracking app. real life situations have happened where the girl was abducted and was able to send a text and her GPS location via an app to her boyfriend who contacted police and save her.

 

[Tez3]

i do not know how applicable it would be for that age group but i am thinking about the girl logging in on her cell phone to face book live and turning, point the phone at him and confronting the man.
"your on facebook live,,,why are you following me?"

i would advise all parents for teens to have a cell phone. they need to be linked into another family members account with GPS tracking app. real life situations have happened where the girl was abducted and was able to send a text and her GPS location via an app to her boyfriend who contacted police and save her.

Thank you, that's a great idea, I know people do go on about teenagers and their phones but if they can also be a life savers, they should have them.

 

[Buka]

Great topic, Tez.

 

[Tez3]

Great topic, Tez.

Thank you, I've been quite worried about it quite honestly. It's something that has been hidden for a while but is coming out from under it's stone. I think the investigations into the Canadian guy who ran down mostly women the other day has galvanised people into looking a bit further. My daughter's sister in law is a police expert on child abuse, online grooming etc and says this type of thing is taken seriously but it's hard to pin down on the internet, though Interpol and Europol are working on it.
However, at the moment I think we need to work on protecting children without scaring them, difficult because it's such a nebulous threat in many ways which I do think could materialise into something worse as the deaths in Canada have proven.

 

[pdg]

I've written 3 replies to this thread, and they're all crap...

 

[Tez3]

I've written 3 replies to this thread, and they're all crap...

I did say it was difficult.

The age of the girls this guy is targeting makes them too young to cope with a direct confrontation, something some had suggested on FB. I would do it but I'm not the target.

On the point about it being harmless psychological game or whatever, one of the girls I know had to receive help as her confidence was severely knocked by the incident, there is a lost of innocence almost in being scared like that. We need a way of equipping them for encounters that may or may not be dangerous but not make them fearful of every shadow.

Do we teach basic self defence techniques or are they going to be too young and too weak, what if they don't want to learn? Do we insist on them going out in twos and threes? Just what do we do here?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I did say it was difficult.

The age of the girls this guy is targeting makes them too young to cope with a direct confrontation, something some had suggested on FB. I would do it but I'm not the target.

On the point about it being harmless psychological game or whatever, one of the girls I know had to receive help as her confidence was severely knocked by the incident, there is a lost of innocence almost in being scared like that. We need a way of equipping them for encounters that may or may not be dangerous but not make them fearful of every shadow.

Do we teach basic self defence techniques or are they going to be too young and too weak, what if they don't want to learn? Do we insist on them going out in twos and threes? Just what do we do here?

I think basic SD techniques are probably part of the solution, though there are limitations (which you mentioned, so I won't). Things like teaching them to live video the guy help (though there's an obvious danger for that to be misused by someone who either gets frightened by an innocent or simply thinks its funny). Teaching them to find an adult for support when they feel endangered (even a stranger) can help. Having them travel in groups helps.

Unfortunately, I think it's going to be a rather lengthy list of small "helps" that make a difference. That some of the solutions carry their own problems doesn't make it any easier.

 

[Buka]

I did say it was difficult.

The age of the girls this guy is targeting makes them too young to cope with a direct confrontation, something some had suggested on FB. I would do it but I'm not the target.

On the point about it being harmless psychological game or whatever, one of the girls I know had to receive help as her confidence was severely knocked by the incident, there is a lost of innocence almost in being scared like that. We need a way of equipping them for encounters that may or may not be dangerous but not make them fearful of every shadow.

Do we teach basic self defence techniques or are they going to be too young and too weak, what if they don't want to learn? Do we insist on them going out in twos and threes? Just what do we do here?

As you mentioned, "psychological games" can be quite dangerous. Creepy, too.

Tough questions, Tez. Important ones.

 

[drop bear]

The prevention is basic self defence. If you are vulnerable. Go to where you are less vulnerable.

Be aware that it is occurring.

Gang up with support if you can.

Find an exit to somewhere safe.

Same as when angry people wanted to stalk me. That is all I did.(mostly)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm partial to the live feed idea, but with that it requires a level of confrontation some aren't comfortable with. If they're not, they can at the very least call a parent or 911 (or the UK equivalent), and just staying on the phone with them if they dont want to confront the person.


But this is a very serious issue. One of the social media sites, reddit, that shut it down...they had someone posting on the 'incel' forum, who was planning a tape on that forum. That person then posted on a more popular forum (dont recall which one) posing as a teenage girl, asking if she got raped in X state/county (in a specific scenario), how could she find out who did it. They shut down the sub after that, but its since reopened under a slightly different name. Its scary to me how many people have that mindset, and they just continuously encourage the mindset for each other, making it worse. I'm scared by it and I'm a Male in my mid 20s, with 19 years of MA experience, I cant imagine what reading that stuff is like for a teenage girl with no experience in SD.

 

[pdg]

So I've pondered a little...

The live feed thing, I think, is a terrible idea.

It's hugely confrontational and intimidating in it's own way.

Try it yourself, go for a wander around - you'll have no problems finding someone simply walking behind you in the same direction.

Now, turn around and shove a camera phone in their face and demand to know why they're following you - for added fun, if they deny it hassle them by repeating "you were following me, tell me why".

Be sure to post your results.




Edit: more soon

 

[mrt2]

I did say it was difficult.

Do we teach basic self defence techniques or are they going to be too young and too weak, what if they don't want to learn? Do we insist on them going out in twos and threes? Just what do we do here?

I had this discussion on Facebook with an acquaintance, and some people she knew. She posted a series of videos showing women foiling attacks or just beating creeps' butts with what looked to me like advanced martial arts techniques with some sort of a message like, ladies, don't be a victim.

I disagreed, saying these looked like quite advanced techniques, and that unless what she had in mind was for women to commit themselves to realistic martial arts training several times a week for years, this was not a realistic thing to say. I then got into a back and forth with a guy who teaches women self defense who disagreed with me. But my point was, self defense is a good thing to know, but you are only as good as your training. Unless you train realistically, and regularly, a one off or short course in self defense is not likely to work.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Firstly, a caveat. This is not a gender politics discussion, it's not about whether such groups as 'Incel' exist, though there is good evidence they do ( the site this came from was 'Incels.me', the poster was reported but whether any action was taken I don't know) the driver who mowed down people in Canada allegedly 'vowed loyalty' to them/one. At least one social media site has banned groups from posting. The point is that whether it's a group posting or an individual, this type of post is all over social media, it's inciting those who have the mindset or inclination to do this. The posts are also shared and don't die even if the originator is banned or even arrested/charged.

My point and my only point of posting this is to help find ways we can help the young girls who have already been affected by this ( I know two in my area, not just 'know of' actually know them personally) or how to warn and instruct girls about what they should do if they find themselves in this situation ( whether or not incited by these posts). The police in our area are aware and I know that the Home Office here have this in their sights and are attempting to 'do something', what they can do I don't know I'm not an IT expert. I have reason to know that this is more than a local problem, not even just a UK problem but most likely a worldwide problem, certainly it's on English speaking sites. I also know there is a lot of worry from parents as well as children about issues like this.

I have copied one of the posts, I specifically would like us to explore ways and means of helping girls, as many know I'm a Girl Guiding leader, if we can come up with good solutions I can share them widely. I have racked my brains hence my asking for help, it's not directly a self defence situation though it could be I imagine. It goes against the grain to allow someone to scare me but it's not me it's scaring but young girls so running away ( which is what my young friends did) seems a good idea though it's what the poster and his ilk want presumably.


I have kept the post to last deliberately, I have also just copied it rather than link it, to take away all comments on it made by various people to keep any political arguments out of it. ( some though suggest running away, some confronting the person)

so how do we protect and warn our children?

I tell people even women. Accept and embrace the fact that there are crazy people and people who don't have your best interest in mind. Unfortunately there are more people who don't have your best interest in mind, than crazy people. Never put your safety in the hands of other. Never assume that someone won't harm you.