Hojo Undo

puunui

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Yes, I do make my own. Much cheaper than buying it from a store even when you allow for buying the imported herbs!

My herbs cost about $20 (plus vodka) which makes a gallon of jow. Much cheaper than the $15 for four ounces that is retail. The most expensive herb by far is tien chi. I usually make a gallon every year at Chinese new years. It''s good for bruises as well. Rub that jow on at night and the bruise is 90% gone by morning.


Iron palm still involves striking progressively tougher and tougher surfaces to build up your bone and sinew,albeit it's done at a slower rate than kotekitae. It's all good though.

do you do the beans, then sand then gravel thing? I don't do that. I just hit consistently on a bag filled with sand. I don't want my hand to look calloused. When I was taking Kenpo, Professor Chow used to do a combination of hard and soft style conditioning. He wasn't into jow though.
 

dancingalone

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My herbs cost about $20 (plus vodka) which makes a gallon of jow. Much cheaper than the $15 for four ounces that is retail. The most expensive herb by far is tien chi. I usually make a gallon every year at Chinese new years. It''s good for bruises as well. Rub that jow on at night and the bruise is 90% gone by morning.

Wow! I'm afraid I don't even know the romanized words for the ingredients in my recipe. My teacher wrote it out for me years ago and I just mail a photocopy of it to an Asian herbist in Quebec to mail order mine. It costs around $300 to make a half keg (about 15 gallons). I've inquired if there was a cheaper supplier with the other people in my lineage and the answer is no. Apparently, the recipe has some rare mushroom(?) in it which accounts for the bulk of the cost.

Edit: I just did the math and I guess our costs are comparable. :)



do you do the beans, then sand then gravel thing? I don't do that. I just hit consistently on a bag filled with sand. I don't want my hand to look calloused. When I was taking Kenpo, Professor Chow used to do a combination of hard and soft style conditioning. He wasn't into jow though.

I no longer try to practice iron palm, but yes that was the progression prescribed. As for making my hands look ugly, well I do have conditioned knuckles, so I am unconcerned about aesthetics at this point. The knuckles always made for interesting conversations in the business world.

I think it's rather neat that you knew Professor Chow. Did he ever practice Naihanchi to your knowledge?
 
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chrispillertkd

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Which book are you talking about? The Encyclopedia? If so, I had the erroneous understanding that this material was NOT published anywhere.

Well, the the first edition of the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do was published in the early 1980's and there is a section in volume 5 that covers ho sin sul. But even in Gen. Choi's 1972 book there are ho sin sul techniques shown. Interestingly, in that book and its subsequent editions you can see GM Chung Kee Tae demonstrating many of the techniques himself.

I have GM Chung Kee Tae's book on Hapkido (which is pretty basic) but have yet to do a compare/contrast study of it and Gen. Choi's 1972 textbook.

Pax,

Chris
 

dancingalone

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Well, the the first edition of the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do was published in the early 1980's and there is a section in volume 5 that covers ho sin sul. But even in Gen. Choi's 1972 book there are ho sin sul techniques shown. Interestingly, in that book and its subsequent editions you can see GM Chung Kee Tae demonstrating many of the techniques himself.


Is volume 5 considered to be a comprehensive listing of the ho shin sool added by the hapkido master General Choi engaged. I've scanned through that book, but I supposed I thought this offering was more codified along hapkido principles. I also had hoped there was a progressive arrangement of techniques in difficulty.
 

chrispillertkd

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Yeah, I knew to look for ITF or USTF people. Coming from Jhoon Rhee TKD background, I know all too well the problems of assuming stuff. :)

Nah, we all do it to some extent. Human nature and all that.

Know anyone in Texas who can teach the General Choi hapkido material? I'm particularly interested in this stuff and not so much the usual 'ho shin sool' bandied around in TKD dojang. There's some legitimate hapkido in Texas also, but like I said I'm interested in the Choi ITF subset.

I know of a couple of pretty high ranking individuals in Texas but don't know them personally so I can't say whether or not they teach the stuff found in the books or not. Of the ITF instructors I know I can't think of any who don't teach some sort of ho sin sul techniques. Where it is introduced as far as rank is concerned, how it is practiced, etc. can vary quite a bit, however.

As I said before, Gen. Choi left this section of his system much less standardized than fundamental exercises, tul, or sparring. Dallyon is also less stardardized. It and ho sin sul seem to be areas where the instructor (and students) can express themselves in a freer manner, albeit within a set framework. Compared to tuls, for instance, where Gen. Choi was very specific about what he wanted.

Pax,

Chris
 
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SahBumNimRush

SahBumNimRush

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I don't really have a strong interest in necessarily building up calluses on my hands anymore, since I don't do much ungloved anymore (because of my profession). But my shins and forearms used to have a "sharp" edge on them from callusing. I agree I don't need it, but I liked having it, and want to get it back. Since I can't spar like I used to on a regular basis due to lack of "canon fodder," I am interested in other ways to condition these bones.

I used to do baseball bat breaks with roundhouse kicks on my shin for demos, and forearm/elbow breaks on concrete and ice.. . Now I'd be very hesitant to try those breaks, because my calluses have gone "soft."
 

dancingalone

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I used to do baseball bat breaks with roundhouse kicks on my shin for demos, and forearm/elbow breaks on concrete and ice.. . Now I'd be very hesitant to try those breaks, because my calluses have gone "soft."

We didn't spar with pads when I was coming up the ranks in karate. The effect of conditioning was noticeable - you didn't want to clash legs with one of the 'iron' guys and their blocks hurt too even without hitting the right points in the arms and legs.

I often tell my students now that you do NOT want to take a roundhouse kick directly against your arms as the arms will likely break if the kicker is a good one. I'm curious if this maxim has merit versus someone who has completed their iron arms training.
 
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SahBumNimRush

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We didn't spar with pads when I was coming up the ranks in karate. The effect of conditioning was noticeable - you didn't want to clash legs with one of the 'iron' guys and their blocks hurt too even without hitting the right points in the arms and legs.

I often tell my students now that you do NOT want to take a roundhouse kick directly against your arms as the arms will likely break if the kicker is a good one. I'm curious if this maxim has merit versus someone who has completed their iron arms training.

When I was coming up through the ranks, we really spent little time on specifically conditioning the bones of the body. My conditioning came from sparring mostly, as we did not, and still do not use pads. My current problem is that I lack a good sparring partner in the dojang right now. The closest I have is a 16 year old 2nd dan (too young to go hard) and a 40 year old 4th gup (not skilled enough YET to go too aggressively).. . I do spar both of them regularly, just not like I used to spar when I was younger and the class was larger.

However, I can remember taking some HARD roundhouse kicks to the forearms, and I think alot of what you are talking about depends on the execution of the block. If I am going to try to block a roundhouse rather than evade it, I usually bring my elbows together, one arm up and one arm down, creating a "V", and the blocking surface is the 3 inches distal to the elbow on each arm. From that I've never had my arm fractured, even from a hard kicker. That said, it can still hurt like a B!&@$, if you haven't taken alot of them.
 

puunui

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I think it's rather neat that you knew Professor Chow. Did he ever practice Naihanchi to your knowledge?


He was a family friend. My uncle (who we lived next to) trained with him in the 1950's and introduced Professor Chow to his wife. They used to come over regularly. He was always saying that I should train with him. I never saw him do Naihanchi, but he did have his own two man sets that we practiced every class.
 

chrispillertkd

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Is volume 5 considered to be a comprehensive listing of the ho shin sool added by the hapkido master General Choi engaged. I've scanned through that book, but I supposed I thought this offering was more codified along hapkido principles. I also had hoped there was a progressive arrangement of techniques in difficulty.

Oops, missed this question.

IMNSHO, no the techniques in vol. 5 are not comprehensive. Nor are they meant to be. If you go back and compare them to the techniques in the 1972 textbook there is a good amount of overlap, but there are also variations, ommissions an additions. Like I said before, there are some parts of Gen. Choi's system that are very standardized (fundamental exercises, tul), some that are less standardized (dallyon and the various types of sparring), and then the even less standardized (ho sin sul).

Gen. Choi states in the beginning of the ho sin sul section that these are the "most advanced and interesting" techniques in Taekwon-Do (or words to that effect anyway, I don't have the book with me at the moment). It's a shame that more people don't spend more time on them, although given the amount of material there is to cover this is somewhat understandable.

Pax,

Chris
 

dancingalone

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IMNSHO, no the techniques in vol. 5 are not comprehensive. Nor are they meant to be. If you go back and compare them to the techniques in the 1972 textbook there is a good amount of overlap, but there are also variations, ommissions an additions. Like I said before, there are some parts of Gen. Choi's system that are very standardized (fundamental exercises, tul), some that are less standardized (dallyon and the various types of sparring), and then the even less standardized (ho sin sul).

Is it fair to say that the material imported from the hapkido master may not have survived intact? In other words, there is not a specific syllabus documented with a full progression of techniques and principles inherited from Master [his name here]. Although to be sure, his influence lives on in ITF taekwondo, albeit perhaps in a fragmented fashion?
 

chrispillertkd

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Is it fair to say that the material imported from the hapkido master may not have survived intact? In other words, there is not a specific syllabus documented with a full progression of techniques and principles inherited from Master [his name here]. Although to be sure, his influence lives on in ITF taekwondo, albeit perhaps in a fragmented fashion?

There are definitely specific techniques which GM Chung Kee Tae demonstrated for Gen. Choi that went in to the 1972 textbook which are still in the Encyclopedia. But no there are not techniques which are meant to be learned in a specific order at specific ranks with a full explanation of the principles behind each technique in particular and the ho sin sul techniques in general.

It is interesting to point out that GM Chung Kee Tae isn't the only one who had an extensive background in a different art to demonstrate ho sin sul techniques for Gen. Choi. There's also a very early ITF training film (from 1973 or 74) that has a gentleman doing ho sin sul techniques who is identified as holding a 6th dan in Taekwon-Do and a 5th dan in Judo. His techniques do have a Judo "flavor" to them but a friend of mine who is a 4th dan with the ITF and a 5th dan in Hapkido has seen the footage and told me that the man is obviously also a Hapkidoin. I believe the man's name is pronounced "Yong, Dong Ya." Gen. Choi was certainly no stranger to Hapkido and saw value in incorporating some of its techniques into his system.

Pax,

Chris
 

dancingalone

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Thanks for the information. It's too bad in a way.

I think there is a real interest in a logically organized ho shin sool program, something which many TKD schools lack. This may be a way larger organizations such as the KKW or the ITF(s) could attract independent schools to their fold.
 

bluewaveschool

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I'd be very interested in your ideas on this Dancing. I'm always up for different ideas on training, to break up the forms/punch/kick/block routines.
 

puunui

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There's also a very early ITF training film (from 1973 or 74) that has a gentleman doing ho sin sul techniques who is identified as holding a 6th dan in Taekwon-Do and a 5th dan in Judo. His techniques do have a Judo "flavor" to them but a friend of mine who is a 4th dan with the ITF and a 5th dan in Hapkido has seen the footage and told me that the man is obviously also a Hapkidoin. I believe the man's name is pronounced "Yong, Dong Ya."


That's probably Dr. YANG Dong Ja, who was an ITF and Judo practitioner who became the second USTU president, after Dr. Ken Min.
 

chrispillertkd

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Thanks for the information. It's too bad in a way.

I think there is a real interest in a logically organized ho shin sool program, something which many TKD schools lack. This may be a way larger organizations such as the KKW or the ITF(s) could attract independent schools to their fold.

Well, som much for the reply I posted. Hit "submit" but it wouldn't go through :( Here's a very abbreviated version of what I said:

I do agree with you in large part but there is such a thing as too much standardization. I know of organizations that mandate exactly what step sparring counters all their members do. An instructor should be able to give a student one or two corners and have them come back after dilligent trainingh and thought with the whole square. The same, I think, can be said for ho sin sul. You have all the concepts you've learned from the more standardized aspects of Taekwon-Do (the foot work, how to generate power, how to shift the body, etc.) and these concepts can be applied to the ho sin sul techniques one is taught for greater effect.

Pax,

Chris
 

puunui

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I think there is a real interest in a logically organized ho shin sool program, something which many TKD schools lack. This may be a way larger organizations such as the KKW or the ITF(s) could attract independent schools to their fold.


Most try to solve that issue by incorporating Hapkido into their curriculum. You might want to find a Hapkido school in your area and check it out.
 

dancingalone

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Most try to solve that issue by incorporating Hapkido into their curriculum. You might want to find a Hapkido school in your area and check it out.

I am throwing together a program based on my studies in aikido and karate, but certainly it would be interesting and illuminating to see any 'authentic' TKD self-defense syllabus. When I practiced with the late Dr. Dae Shik Kim back in the eighties/nineties, I know he taught some stuff straight out of his hoshinsul book or what would become his book (unsure on the copyright date).

My friend was in the market for additional self-defense instruction for his school last year. He ultimately went the Combat Hapkido route after we looked into what was available through the ITF avenue. If you search for Combat Hapkido along with my username, you can find some lengthy and sometimes acrimonious discussions about video learning and how hapkido practitioners are insulted by the idea of either Combat Hapkido or "Add-on" Hapkido.
 
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