Help Requested Locating A General Choi Quote

[TKDTony2179]

I was wondering if anyone was going to get to the point of the the individual school and not org. I have thought long and hard on this one and I do see that what Choi meant to be able to defend against a single attack. One person. Yea he or she may be hurt a little bit but not badly. Honestly we as instructors want a black belt to have the knowledge and skill set do defend against someone of equal or lesser skills.

When Choi wrote this I assume that tkd wasnt a huge sport like it is today. So when looking at this quote, one must ask how good is the curriculum? Is it realistic? Or traditional one steps that are told to be self defense. Are all the ranges of figthing taught? (Ignore the trapping range just tkd) How well do the instructor teaches. Is he clear. Do he teach everything. Proper way to use a knee, elbow, and leg kicks? How about the student? How well do that student take his training. Does he pays attention well. Does he or she ask questions?

Many factors make a good 1st degree.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

When Choi wrote this I assume that tkd wasnt a huge sport like it is today. So when looking at this quote, one must ask how good is the curriculum? Is it realistic? Or traditional one steps that are told to be self defense. Are all the ranges of figthing taught? (Ignore the trapping range just tkd) How well do the instructor teaches. Is he clear. Do he teach everything. Proper way to use a knee, elbow, and leg kicks? How about the student? How well do that student take his training. Does he pays attention well. Does he or she ask questions?

Many factors make a good 1st degree.

To me the big question is this: how athletic is the student? If the BB model is "everyone gets a BB after 3-5 years" then the unathletic (25%??) won't be able to defend themselves with any success IMO.

 

[TKDTony2179]

To me the big question is this: how athletic is the student? If the BB model is "everyone gets a BB after 3-5 years" then the unathletic (25%??) won't be able to defend themselves with any success IMO.

I was meaning to put that in my responds but for got. Yea, athletic people learn faster and are usually better at the martial arts than someone who has to learn or train coordination, balance, speed, agility, or any other attribrute. Again though if the person in unathletic but trains hard enough they could find the a way to defend themself if they are pushed hard enough. May not look good doing it but it is possible. I have seen a few students that are not that athletic actually do pretty good sparring if they try but for the once that don't try, just do enough to pass and usually that is the last you will hear of them.

 

[Earl Weiss]

To me the big question is this: how athletic is the student? If the BB model is "everyone gets a BB after 3-5 years" then the unathletic (25%??) won't be able to defend themselves with any success IMO.

AFAIAC if you have to be exceptionaly athletic to get a BB there is a problem with the curriculum. Unless there are physical or mental issues after 3+ years of hard work 3 x a week for over an hour a session anyone who has the physical and mental capacity to ride a 2 wheel bicycle and feed themselves with silverware has the capacity to be a BB.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

We are getting back to the old "what is a BB" question and "what is the requirement for a BB" question

At the BB tests I have seen (including kids), out of 20 students, there are 2-3 who are quite talented, 10-15 who are ok, and 2-5 who are quite poor.

I am saying that from the BB tests I have seen, the most unathletic (bottom 25% perhaps) are maybe no better off against an attacker, particularly in an average WTF school.

I say this because IMO kicks take MUCH more practice and athleticism than punches. (A jab / cross combination is perhaps the easiest/most effective combination). So for someone who is less athletic, IMO their kicks are not good enough to be useful. That leaves punching, which their assailant also knows, and being less athletic, their weaker and slower response will put them on the losing side IMO.

 

[TKDTony2179]

We are getting back to the old "what is a BB" question and "what is the requirement for a BB" question

At the BB tests I have seen (including kids), out of 20 students, there are 2-3 who are quite talented, 10-15 who are ok, and 2-5 who are quite poor.

I am saying that from the BB tests I have seen, the most unathletic (bottom 25% perhaps) are maybe no better off against an attacker, particularly in an average WTF school.

I say this because IMO kicks take MUCH more practice and athleticism than punches. (A jab / cross combination is perhaps the easiest/most effective combination). So for someone who is less athletic, IMO their kicks are not good enough to be useful. That leaves punching, which their assailant also knows, and being less athletic, their weaker and slower response will put them on the losing side IMO.

Very well possible could be. Although a non train person can easily do a front kick to the groin and take the fight out of someone. Not very much skill is needed for that.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Very well possible could be. Although a non train person can easily do a front kick to the groin and take the fight out of someone. Not very much skill is needed for that.

True.

I sometimes wonder what rule changes in MMA would drastically change the fighting style. For instance, if eye poke were allowed, would people be very reticent to "go to the ground"? Would people then say that BJJ is not effective in a real fight, whereas people now say it is? And what about the groin kick as you mention - would MMA artists have a more narrow and/or sideways stance? I don't want to drift further off topic - I'm just saying the you are right in that a few simple and dirty techniques can change everything.

 

[TKDTony2179]

True.

I sometimes wonder what rule changes in MMA would drastically change the fighting style. For instance, if eye poke were allowed, would people be very reticent to "go to the ground"? Would people then say that BJJ is not effective in a real fight, whereas people now say it is? And what about the groin kick as you mention - would MMA artists have a more narrow and/or sideways stance? I don't want to drift further off topic - I'm just saying the you are right in that a few simple and dirty techniques can change everything.

Being sideways won't stop a round kick to the groin but dirty fighting is legal on the street. Since we are talking about a 1st dan defending themself against a single attack made me only think of nonsport martial arts. As far as rule changing I would say 12-6 elbow strikes could change it a lot. Possible throat grabs. But that is getting really brutal. But the eye poke would change the fight quickly as it would be harder to hit what you can't see. I am still waiting to see ANY GRAPPLING that can prove to be good at defending two people. It is already harder striking systems. It would have to be pure grappling and no strikes. There is a video on youtube with one of the young gracies talking about fighting multiple opponents but still in the end of the video, I don't think they prove that BJJ can defend against 2 opponents

, and this one

Tell me what you think.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

AFAIAC if you have to be exceptionaly athletic to get a BB there is a problem with the curriculum. Unless there are physical or mental issues after 3+ years of hard work 3 x a week for over an hour a session anyone who has the physical and mental capacity to ride a 2 wheel bicycle and feed themselves with silverware has the capacity to be a BB.

Curriculum will make a big difference. Some people can play golf for 3+ years of hard work 3 x a week for over an hour a session and still be a very ordinary golfer, whereas others would excel with half that effort. Ive trained with one guy, who due to lack of co ordination, flexibility and balance will just never be able to break timber with a jump spinning hook kick and break a thick piece of timber at head height no matter how hard he tries. At the majority of clubs in my area that is a grading requirement for second dan. Should he never progress beyond first dan because of this if he trained at one of those clubs?

 

[TKDTony2179]

Curriculum will make a big difference. Some people can play golf for 3+ years of hard work 3 x a week for over an hour a session and still be a very ordinary golfer, whereas others would excel with half that effort. Ive trained with one guy, who due to lack of co ordination, flexibility and balance will just never be able to break timber with a jump spinning hook kick and break a thick piece of timber at head height no matter how hard he tries. At the majority of clubs in my area that is a grading requirement for second dan. Should he never progress beyond first dan because of this if he trained at one of those clubs?

Well, that would just suck if you have to break would at head level. Waist level should be good enough. Everyone can't be average or above average TKD artist.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Well, that would just suck if you have to break would at head level. Waist level should be good enough. Everyone can't be average or above average TKD artist.

Im not saying I agree with it, but it is a grading requirement at many clubs.Waist level you wouldnt exactly be jumping though

 

[TKDTony2179]

Im not saying I agree with it, but it is a grading requirement at many clubs.Waist level you wouldnt exactly be jumping though

You mean you can't jump spin kick a 6 yr old in the head? LOL. (Joke) That would be tough to break at waist level but I seen heavy weight people do it and pass. But that is my org and not those clubs. Of course have done it chest level but I know I could do a board break head level.

 

[Earl Weiss]

will just never be able to break timber with a jump spinning hook kick and break a thick piece of timber at head height no matter how hard he tries. At the majority of clubs in my area that is a grading requirement for second dan. Should he never progress beyond first dan because of this if he trained at one of those clubs?

If that is what is required the answer is self evident. I wonder what happens to those 2nd, third and 4th dans etc. when they get to be 40, 50, or 60 years old and can no longer do it. Do they get demoted?

 

[dancingalone]

Ive trained with one guy, who due to lack of co ordination, flexibility and balance will just never be able to break timber with a jump spinning hook kick and break a thick piece of timber at head height no matter how hard he tries. At the majority of clubs in my area that is a grading requirement for second dan. Should he never progress beyond first dan because of this if he trained at one of those clubs?

"Requirements" like those are common in my area, but they're usually soft requirements rather than hard ones and can be adjusted somewhat based on age, jumping ability, and injury. Like in my case, I ask my red belts to be able to break with a jump spinning back kick, but if they can't for whatever reason, I'll accept a double board break with a regular spinning back kick instead. Not really a big deal IMO. I'm much more strict about students knowing their forms or showing some effort and fighting spirit on their tests.