Help me choose a grappling art

[Flea]

I never thought I'd pose this question in a million years. :roflmao:

But there you have it. I want a good supplement to my Systema. Yes, Systema has grappling, but I'd like to branch out a little and see what else is out there. SD, as always, is my top priority so I'd want something that provides for escape. And I'm not a big fan of being thrown because it's tough on my poor backal region. I'm also quite petite.

So ... any suggestions?

 

[K831]

As per usual, more than the art, I would make the instructor and the school the more prominent deciding issue.

If you are looking for SD, I would personally avoid sport oriented grappling classes. You don't want to be conditioning and learning how to stay on the ground and roll around hunting for submissions as a small female who is trying to address SD situations.

Find a school that teaches from a perspective that understands:

1.) You are easy to take down/throw, and rape happens from a guard position.
2.) as such, prevention of the above is first priority, ESCAPE from is second (not staying there trying to submit.)
3.) Class should take into account the importance of positioning to strike soft targets, draw/deploy and utilize both carried and improvised weapons while on the ground.
4.) Class should work on striking from the ground while in grappling range, but also, if you are downed and the opponent is standing

Any grappling art (wrestling/catch/BJJ/JJ/Judo) can be tailored to the above by a competent and experienced instructor.

However, in my opinion, western wrestling and Judo based curriculum lend them selves to the above more readily than BJJ for a few reasons; 1.) Wrestling and Judo have a much greater focus on take down defense, and wrestling is much more focused on achieving and maintaining top control and positions which lend themselves more to striking and returning to ones feet. BJJ classes tend to be more focused on ring oriented competition and submissions - neither are a great choice for a small gal seeking SD.

Just my .02

EDIT: Judo does a lot of throwing (which you don't want) but my instructor (who is both a wrestler and Judo player) does not have us throw anyone who doesn't want to be thrown, and has a lot of classes dedicated to "surviving the ground" without throwing at all. All about the instructor and his curriculum.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would advise you to check around and find a grappling instructor that you like. You will have a much better time and probably stick with it. Judo, Wrestling are both very good but.... I would always go with Brazilian Jiujitsu as it simply has more options open to you. ie. jacket chokes, more choking techniques in general, armbars, etc. It also works well for women and I have seen sixteen year old girls tie up thirty and forty year old men.

The only other option that I personally feel is equal or maybe even better is Sambo. If you look around you can easily find a BJJ coach who will tailer it to your self defense needs rather than competition! Good luck and look around!

 

[K831]

I would advise you to check around and find a grappling instructor that you like. You will have a much better time and probably stick with it. Judo, Wrestling are both very good but.... I would always go with Brazilian Jiujitsu as it simply has more options open to you. ie. jacket chokes, more choking techniques in general, armbars, etc. It also works well for women and I have seen sixteen year old girls tie up thirty and forty year old men.

The only other option that I personally feel is equal or maybe even better is Sambo. If you look around you can easily find a BJJ coach who will tailer it to your self defense needs rather than competition! Good luck and look around!

Agreed about Sambo. I have seen the lapel chokes etc in Judo as well as JJJ etc.

Never in my life have I seen or found a small female who could execute submissions with high percentage against a non compliant and committed man, especially when being attempted outside "BJJ" rules. Many times I have pealed off chokes etc from women who were far superior grapplers than me. They just didn't have the strength. I can break them in so many ways at contact manipulation range before they can stop the threat. I really think submissions should be a last resort for women in SD.

 

[Thesemindz]

If you're looking for self defense, I'd look for a school that teaches you to hurt people, rather than beat people. Ask around your current training group first. You might already have someone who has something to offer, or at least get a reference. Failing that, call around, try some classes. Look for an instructor who's willing to tailor his instruction to your interests. Many of the techniques are going to be similar from school to school regardless of style. There's only so many ways to sit on a person and smash their head into the ground. Most of the differences will be in training method, philosophy, and finishing techniques.

Kajukenbo has a reputation for teaching grappling techniques with a striking, standing, and escaping philosophy. So does Krav Maga. Hapkido and JJJ schools are more likely to be taught as war arts. BJJ, Judo, and Western Wrestling are more likely to be taught as peace arts. But you can find TKD guys and kenpo guys teaching grappling classes these days too. You just have to look around.

I think the advice from K831 was all accurate.

Find a school that teaches from a perspective that understands:

1.) You are easy to take down/throw, and rape happens from a guard position.
2.) as such, prevention of the above is first priority, ESCAPE from is second (not staying there trying to submit.)
3.) Class should take into account the importance of positioning to strike soft targets, draw/deploy and utilize both carried and improvised weapons while on the ground.
4.) Class should work on striking from the ground while in grappling range, but also, if you are downed and the opponent is standing

Any good instructor can teach you that, but not all instructors are interested in it. I don't teach sport grappling, many sport grapplers won't teach self defense. That doesn't mean their art won't work in a self defense situation, just that they don't train for that arena. We don't train for the ring.

Find an instructor you like. With no standard of quality in the martial arts community picking a style by name isn't very effective. A great style's name can be on the sign of some really awful schools. You want an instructor you can trust who knows what he's talking about, and the only way to find out if that's the case is to try some classes.

Good luck. I really enjoy ground fighting. It's a valuable skill, and a lot of fun to train in.


-Rob

 

[Flea]

Sambo? Awesome! I hadn't even thought of that.

I went online and looked up grappling arts in my city, and I found one gym that offers JJ and BJJ. Best of all it's very accessible to me by bus, which is a big priority for me as well. Sambo isn't listed on their schedule, but the website says one the instructors is certified to teach it. I'll give them a call.

 

[Steve]

What's the school, Flea? If you have questions about BJJ schools in your area, I might be able to help, particularly in the Pac. NW.

 

[Flea]

(Sent via PM. If anyone else is interested, I can send it out to them as well.)

 

[lklawson]

I never thought I'd pose this question in a million years. :roflmao:

But there you have it. I want a good supplement to my Systema. Yes, Systema has grappling, but I'd like to branch out a little and see what else is out there. SD, as always, is my top priority so I'd want something that provides for escape. And I'm not a big fan of being thrown because it's tough on my poor backal region. I'm also quite petite.

So ... any suggestions?

Judo, BJJ, Catch Wrestling (the old school stuff), or Sambo are the most readily accessible which teach decent grappling skills.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

As per usual, more than the art, I would make the instructor and the school the more prominent deciding issue.

If you are looking for SD, I would personally avoid sport oriented grappling classes. You don't want to be conditioning and learning how to stay on the ground and roll around hunting for submissions as a small female who is trying to address SD situations.

It's important to be able to work in this context because, quite simply, it's very easy to force the fight there, particularly if the person forcing the fight is bigger and/or stronger. Surely you've seen someone losing a fist-fight barnacle on to his opponent and drag him inelegantly to the floor?

EDIT: Judo does a lot of throwing (which you don't want)

Umm... What? Throwing is very important to self defense oriented work. There are only about 5 or 7 basic throws but a myriad of variations among them.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

But you can find TKD guys and kenpo guys teaching grappling classes these days too.

I'd be wary of these. In the last 10 years or so, I've seen a lot of TKD and Karate schools hanging shingles that say they now teach Grappling or MMA. My experience is that they're not really all that good at it. If you're lucky, the guy is taking BJJ or Judo classes on the side (Yudo if he's TKD) and incorporating that into his stuff. If you're not lucky, he bought a DVD on grappling to "augment" his curriculum.

Short circuit the whole thing and just got take BJJ or Judo.

Of the two, I prefer Judo but, honestly, the BJJ guys are more likely to have a secondary "MMA" class in their curriculum which will teach you to effectively blend striking and grappling. Don't see that too often in Judo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

What's the school, Flea? If you have questions about BJJ schools in your area, I might be able to help, particularly in the Pac. NW.

Listen to Steve. He knows what's what in BJJ.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Thesemindz]

I'd be wary of these. In the last 10 years or so, I've seen a lot of TKD and Karate schools hanging shingles that say they now teach Grappling or MMA. My experience is that they're not really all that good at it. If you're lucky, the guy is taking BJJ or Judo classes on the side (Yudo if he's TKD) and incorporating that into his stuff. If you're not lucky, he bought a DVD on grappling to "augment" his curriculum.

Short circuit the whole thing and just got take BJJ or Judo.

Of the two, I prefer Judo but, honestly, the BJJ guys are more likely to have a secondary "MMA" class in their curriculum which will teach you to effectively blend striking and grappling. Don't see that too often in Judo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I'd be wary of any instructor of any style. Regardless of what it says on his sign, you won't know what he's teaching until you go in and try a class. If you're lucky, you might find something really useful and interesting. If you're not lucky, you go try another school.


-Rob

 

[msmitht]

Bjj. Gracie academy style is best for pure self defense on the ground. Not sport oriented at all. Gb, atos, att, humatia are all good but there is more sport focus. Judo for throws but can be rough till you learn the falls. Wresting for speed but will lead to you turning your back on the ground.

 

[Flea]

Gb, atos, att, humatia are all good

Are those acronyms? I haven't heard those terms before.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Agreed about Sambo. I have seen the lapel chokes etc in Judo as well as JJJ etc.

Never in my life have I seen or found a small female who could execute submissions with high percentage against a non compliant and committed man, especially when being attempted outside "BJJ" rules. Many times I have pealed off chokes etc from women who were far superior grapplers than me. They just didn't have the strength. I can break them in so many ways at contact manipulation range before they can stop the threat. I really think submissions should be a last resort for women in SD.

There are simply huge attribute advantages to being a male vs. a female in grappling. Yet I have seen both young women and older fare very well. Here is a video clip of a woman dismantling a very, very fit young man.

[yt]CYGY_FMnrD8&feature=related[/yt]
The match starts around 7:42 or so!

 

[Steve]

Are those acronyms? I haven't heard those terms before.

They're different affiliations. GB = Gracie Barra, perhaps the biggest.

Others include Alliance, Gracie Humaita, Checkmat... there are many.

 

[oftheherd1]

I never thought I'd pose this question in a million years. :roflmao:

But there you have it. I want a good supplement to my Systema. Yes, Systema has grappling, but I'd like to branch out a little and see what else is out there. SD, as always, is my top priority so I'd want something that provides for escape. And I'm not a big fan of being thrown because it's tough on my poor backal region. I'm also quite petite.

So ... any suggestions?

Interesting to see only 1 or 2 mentions of Hapkido. Hapkido is primarily a defense oriented art. That offense taught is usually just before the next black belt rank, and is a modification of one of the defensive techniques already learned. However, there are indeed throws. If you were to decide on Hapkido, be sure it is one that teaches breakfalls as a regular part of skills.

Aikido is another. Again, breakfalls are a regular part of continuing education. From what I know of it, it is a little different in that it seems to be content with allowing an attacker to tire and decide to go home if possible. Hapkido tends towards an attitude of I didn't want to be bothered to begin with, and I don't intend to be bothered again.

Seeing they are both defensive in basic nature, there are plenty of escapes from different attacks and holds. Some attack joints, some pressure points, and most combine the two. There are also escapes from being in the sitting position as well as on the ground. There is no punch, kick, hold, or weapon that a defense against isn't learned.

Just another option you might want to consider.

 

[lklawson]

Interesting to see only 1 or 2 mentions of Hapkido.

Because most of the Hapkido that I've seen is, in essence, TKD with some standing joint-locks mixed in and very little/no ground grappling. Further, the experience is that most sparring in HKD does not include grappling, particularly ground grappling.

YMMV of course, but that seems to be the typical setup for HKD.

Aikido is another. Again, breakfalls are a regular part of continuing education. From what I know of it, it is a little different in that it seems to be content with allowing an attacker to tire and decide to go home if possible.

Aikido's "grappling" is very narrow focus. Aikido looks at one particular element of fighting (Aiki/"Blending") and elevates that but at the expense of all other elements. The problem is, in order to fully functionalize the skills Aikido teaches, you really need to have a solid foundation in the fundamentals, otherwise it's an art with no way to express itself under stress (noted prodigies excepted, of course). Aikido is the calculus of the martial arts world. It's no good to try to learn calculus if you've never learned basic math (noted prodigies excepted, of course).

If I had my way no one would be allowed to learn Aikido unless they had a minimum of 2-5 years prior experience in something else. Karate, Boxing, Judo, whatever.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Brian King]

Flea,
Congratulations, it shows the hard work that you have put into discovering/understanding yourself, recognizing the injury/weakness to your psyche and doing the very difficult work necessary to strengthen and repair the psyche. It was what, only two years ago and you could not grapple or face contact at all with out severe negative reaction to it. Slowly by gaining understanding of breathing and relaxation and working with understanding partners and instructors bit by bit you have increased your tolerance of the ‘contact’. So many give up on the battle Flea and yet you remained and persevered until here you are now asking for more grappling. An amazing accomplishment and one you and your instructors and class mates should be proud of.

Flea wrote

“SD, as always, is my top priority so I'd want something that provides for escape.”

I would recommend any of the pure grappling programs with the caveat that you do not worry too much about self defense with any of them, far more important in my opinion is that you get along with the instructor and fellow students and that the environment is safe and not too competitive. They are sport arts and should, in my opinion, in your case be trained as such. Grappling for grapplings own sake is fun and very healthy. Watch untrained children ‘wrassling’ and seek to recapture that feel of enjoyment and joy that contact and movement can bring. The grappling sports can teach and practice some self defensive attributes no doubt, but their ideas of what escape means in both physical and spiritual terms if addressed at all will be likely be very different. Rather than trying to shoehorn them into your self defense model perhaps accept them as they are and seek the enjoyment and lessons they can offer. I STRONGLY recommend dousing after those kinds of workouts.

I would also recommend prior to your regular class, grab a student or two and a knife or three or a rifle or pistol, and do some ground work to help warm up and get in some time on the floor. Ten minutes each practice adds up over time. At the end of class again grab a student or two but rather than working on self defense or ‘serious’ work just roll around and grapple for movements sake, not trying to choke, arm-bar or submit but just sweeps and reversals, movement and flowing with a partner(s) for the pleasure and health benefits that contact brings. Think moving massage and relaxation rather than submitting and glory. Think calming work rather than cardiovascular aerobic work. This practice if done correctly should calm your psyche after class not ramp it up. It should increase your tolerance of the type work not reintroduce fear.

Good luck and again congratulations.
Regards
Brian King