heel pain

[ralphmcpherson]

About 5 weeks ago in class after breaking with a spin kick the back of my heel (the part that connects with the board) started to hurt a lot more than normal immediately after breaking the board. It usually hurts a bit after a break but the pain subsides almost immediately , but since that kick 5 weeks ago it just doesnt seem to get better and the pain when I break is excruitiating. Anyhow , Ive rested it for a couple of weeks and it felt a bit better until tonight when we had a big breaking session. As soon as I broke the timber the pain was even worse than it has been lately and 2 hours after class the back of my heel is still pulsating. Someone at my club who noticed me limping suggested I get an x ray as there could be some bone floating around in there , my instructor said he has also heard of this happening. I was hoping to get some feedback from some of you guys , have you had this pain before? Do you know of someone who has? or have any of you heard of potential to do damage to the bone in the heel area? Any feedback would be much appreciated.

 

[chungdokwan123]

About 5 weeks ago in class after breaking with a spin kick the back of my heel (the part that connects with the board) started to hurt a lot more than normal immediately after breaking the board. It usually hurts a bit after a break but the pain subsides almost immediately , but since that kick 5 weeks ago it just doesnt seem to get better and the pain when I break is excruitiating. Anyhow , Ive rested it for a couple of weeks and it felt a bit better until tonight when we had a big breaking session. As soon as I broke the timber the pain was even worse than it has been lately and 2 hours after class the back of my heel is still pulsating. Someone at my club who noticed me limping suggested I get an x ray as there could be some bone floating around in there , my instructor said he has also heard of this happening. I was hoping to get some feedback from some of you guys , have you had this pain before? Do you know of someone who has? or have any of you heard of potential to do damage to the bone in the heel area? Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Interestingly enough, my wife is recovering from a similar injury. She.....well.....she slipped and fell while doing some kicking drills. She fell on her back and the heel came down on the floor and was fractured. A freak accident if ever there was one. She goes back to the orthopedic surgeon today for what should be the last time. Tomorrow night she will start back in class......we hope.

You need to give this attention immediately in order to ascertain just what level of injury you have incurred. I'm no physician.....I'm merely relaying what her surgeon communicated to us......a heel fracture basically stays with you forever. Foot pain and complications are more normal than not. Therefore, if you haven't reached that degree of injury yet, you might want to let the heel recover fully before participating in any more breaking.....you might even need to modify what you are doing in that regard.

You need to get professional guidance on this right away.

 

[Xue Sheng]

About 5 weeks ago in class after breaking with a spin kick the back of my heel (the part that connects with the board) started to hurt a lot more than normal immediately after breaking the board. It usually hurts a bit after a break but the pain subsides almost immediately , but since that kick 5 weeks ago it just doesnt seem to get better and the pain when I break is excruitiating. Anyhow , Ive rested it for a couple of weeks and it felt a bit better until tonight when we had a big breaking session. As soon as I broke the timber the pain was even worse than it has been lately and 2 hours after class the back of my heel is still pulsating. Someone at my club who noticed me limping suggested I get an x ray as there could be some bone floating around in there , my instructor said he has also heard of this happening. I was hoping to get some feedback from some of you guys , have you had this pain before? Do you know of someone who has? or have any of you heard of potential to do damage to the bone in the heel area? Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Don't ask faceless people on the internet about injuries...go to a doctor and get checked and not just any doctor a Podiatrist.

I fractured my heel, not in the same way, and I limped for a while before going to the MD who sent me to a Podiatrist. And there are multiple bones in teh foot so there is really no way of anyof us on MT to tell you what the problem is or how to make it better. Get thee to a doctor and get an x-ray or 2.

 

[ATC]

I am not a doctor but I can play one on MT if that's what you want. I have no malpractice insureance, so when I tell you that everything is fine you can't sue me.

Everything is just fine. Just put some ice on it and walk it off.

See a doctor as no one on here can really tell you what is wrong. They can only tell you a story of what happened to them or someone they know. It still has nothing to do with you until you see a doctor, and then you can tell your story to someone else one day.

 

[jks9199]

In case you aren't following the trend...

Get it checked out by a for real doctor who is actually looking at your foot, not taking a description over the internet.

It could be nothing -- or it could be a permanent, crippling injury. It's possible that the difference between the two is when you get it looked at and treated properly.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I will definetely see a doctor tomorrow. Im just interested to know of people who have had similar injuries and what sort of recovery time they experienced. Also , you guys understand as you do tkd , my doctor is going to think Im crazy for trying to break timber with my foot ,he will just say "stop breaking timber".

 

[Laurentkd]

So what part do you break with? The Achilles? That might be the first aspect to look at.... I think that part of my foot is too important and too easily permanently-damaged to use for breaking. I always use the bottom of my foot on the heel (the fleshy part). Do what you want, I am sure there are people who do break with that part of their foot, just like there are people who break with their head and break concrete with their fists- but its not for me thanks!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I break with the back of my heel , below the achilles , the hard bone there. Up until recently it had never caused much pain at all , just a bit of bite after impact , but lately it feels as if something is wrong there so I wont be doing anymore breaking until I see a doctor. Im hoping its nothing serious.

 

[terryl965]

Well lets see pain in the foot, ummmm.... never had it before, ummm..... Go see the doctor before some serious damage happens with neglect.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Im just interested to know of people who have had similar injuries and what sort of recovery time they experienced.

About a month, after I went to see the MD, but it still bothers me a bit

Also , you guys understand as you do tkd , my doctor is going to think Im crazy for trying to break timber with my foot ,he will just say "stop breaking timber".

This is why my MD is a martial artist

 

[ATC]

I break with the back of my heel , below the achilles , the hard bone there. Up until recently it had never caused much pain at all , just a bit of bite after impact , but lately it feels as if something is wrong there so I wont be doing anymore breaking until I see a doctor. Im hoping its nothing serious.

Really the back of the heel? Not good, to risky, a little off and you hit the achilles. You should be pointing your foot on a spin hook or back spinning as we call it, this way you use the bottom of the heal or even the ball of the foot (longer reach). Bad techniques lead to injury and pain. You should feel no pain at all when doing the kick you do, even if breaking multiple boards or hitting a head.

 

[Laurentkd]

I break with the back of my heel , below the achilles , the hard bone there. Up until recently it had never caused much pain at all , just a bit of bite after impact , but lately it feels as if something is wrong there so I wont be doing anymore breaking until I see a doctor. Im hoping its nothing serious.

Actually your achilles runs from under your heel up until the bellies of the calf muscles, so you are hitting with your achilles. ATC had a great post above about the proper placement IMO of the foot for these kicks.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Really the back of the heel? Not good, to risky, a little off and you hit the achilles. You should be pointing your foot on a spin hook or back spinning as we call it, this way you use the bottom of the heal or even the ball of the foot (longer reach). Bad techniques lead to injury and pain. You should feel no pain at all when doing the kick you do, even if breaking multiple boards or hitting a head.

Is that more of the olympic style? We have a couple of olympic style clubs around my area and they break like that. At our club it is back of the heel or nothing. The tutorial vids Ive seen show it done with the back of the heel also , I suppose there are different ways for different clubs. We have thousands of members and my instructor has only ever heard of a couple of injuries from breaking this way in the club's 35 year history so I dont think the chances of injury are very high. The podiatrist Im seeing tomorrow (couldnt get in to see him today) , is a 1st gup at my club so at least he may not think Im crazy for breaking timber

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Actually your achilles runs from under your heel up until the bellies of the calf muscles, so you are hitting with your achilles. ATC had a great post above about the proper placement IMO of the foot for these kicks.

according to this diagram the achilles does not run across the back of the heel http://www.podiatrychannel.com/pod/Images/ft_bckvw2.jpg
according to the diagram I break with the "calcaneus"

 

[Laurentkd]

according to this diagram the achilles does not run across the back of the heel http://www.podiatrychannel.com/pod/Images/ft_bckvw2.jpg
according to the diagram I break with the "calcaneus"

For what it's worth, my degree is in Exercise Science. While I in no way claim to be an expert, I do hope that I can use the knowledge I've gained to help others in their training. And if there is someone here with more knowledge please jump in, I am always ready to learn.

The link you offered really isn't the best picture since the Achielles seems to just disappear, and maybe my use of "under" wasn't clear enough, I am sure. A tendon is what attaches a muscle to a bone. So the muscles of your calf (there are actually two, the gastrocnemius and the soleus), in simple terms, "turn into" a tendon and then that tendon attaches into the mid-posterior calcaneus (really about the upper third of the clacaneus bone, which is on the "back" of the heal, an area about a 3 1/2 cm, with some fibers extending lower.) This is a better picture in my opinion
https://www.northcoastfootcare.com/footcare-info/images/insertional-achilles-tendonitis.jpg
Hey I didn't sit through hours of a cadavar anatomy lab for nothing!

I am not saying what you are doing is "wrong" it just may not be the safest way to do it. We all have instructors (and sport coaches and PE teachers) who have been taught one way years ago that science now suggests is not really be the best way to do things. This seems especially prevalent in the exercise science field, which wasn't really studied as a science until recent years. I am sure there are still things that I do that probably aren't the best way to do things, but old habits can die hard and I think the important thing is to at least be aware and make an informed decision, and allow your students to make an informed decision. To say that few people have been injured so I don’t need to worry about it isn’t the best course of action. As I was told by a professor, “just because you personally have driven a car without a seat belt on, have never been in a wreck, and never injured yourself, doesn’t mean you should tell people they don’t need to wear seatbelts.”

Tendon injuries take longer than bone injuries to heal and often never heal completely due to limited blood supply. And any area of origin and insertion for a muscle seems to be more prone to injury due to the make-up and stress of the tendon at those sites. Good luck at your doctor's appointment, I hope he says you just have some deep bruising (or something similar) and all you need is a little rest.

Train hard but train safe! And I hope you are still glad you asked your question!

 

[ATC]

Great post Laruen, now I know who to come to when I get injured

.

Ralph, yes you can break with the heel as you are doing it but it is not really safe. Since you are only hitting flat boards and they are not moving your risk is somewhat minimized.

If you attempt the kick as you state in combat you increase the risk of injury plus you shorten your kicking length by more than just a little and you increase your risk of injury to your hamstring or calf as well.

You shorten your kick by pulling you foot back (toes to shin). What this does is increase the tension on your hamstring, calf, and also exposes your achilles. When you tighten the hamstring and calf as you are doing you lose height, length and power in the kick. Why because you also pull on the nerves and will naturally not extend from your hips as much. You slow the kicking leg down and cannot whip our body through the kick. You in essence only kick with your leg and some spin momentum only. You really can't snap your hip into the kick. Plus with the hips back and the foot back you will lose a good 12" on the kick. Most people turn the kick into a spinning crescent more than a spinning heel or back spin kick.

Try doing it with the toes pointed and feel the difference. I see many people kick a front kick the same way, with the foot and toes pulled back. The front kick should be with the ball of foot also, so the foot is pointed but only the toes should be pulled back. When the entire foot is pulled back then the kick can only go so high and with no power or snap due to the foot pulled back putting tension again on the hamstring.

When I teach any beginner I make sure to tell them to point the foot and the toes when learning the front kick. I can correct the toes only back later. I see so called black belts kick front kicks with the bottom of foot with the foot pulled back. Drives me nuts.

Just give the spinning hook a try with the foot pointed. If you don't like it you can always go back. But give it some time. One attempt wouldn't be a fair chance.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thanks for the advice guys , Ive only ever done it the one way so any advice is great. Most of the people at my club who have been breaking for years and years have developed a lump on the back of their heel and feel no pain there at all anymore (probably because they have deadened the nerves) and they easily break 5 or 6 x 1 and a half inch boards in one go with little to no pain at all.

 

[Steven Craig]

The spinning heel kick (where connection is made with the heel )may not be as effective in competition where the main goal is to gain points in sparing, but I believe it has merit as a kick for high impact. I know I sure as hell don't want to ever be on the receiving
end of one. In the club I am in the spinning crescent kick is discouraged in the coloured belts until you have the spinning kick down pat, as with developing students they can be confused when learning the spinning hook. The Master of my club came out in the early 70s and before that trained military, both Korean and American. I think that he is not a fan of using
TKD simply for points sparing, but still tries to instill in his instructors the traditional elements involved in TKD. Each and every kick is for maximum
impact. The sparing I see in club, even though it is the same rules as WTF seems to be significantly different, because of this attitude guard is never
down and the sparing is a lot more brutal. Each to their own, but to discount a high impact kick and modify it may be good for points sparing, but the original still has its value.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The spinning heel kick (where connection is made with the heel )may not be as effective in competition where the main goal is to gain points in sparing, but I believe it has merit as a kick for high impact. I know I sure as hell don't want to ever be on the receiving
end of one. In the club I am in the spinning crescent kick is discouraged in the coloured belts until you have the spinning kick down pat, as with developing students they can be confused when learning the spinning hook. The Master of my club came out in the early 70s and before that trained military, both Korean and American. I think that he is not a fan of using
TKD simply for points sparing, but still tries to instill in his instructors the traditional elements involved in TKD. Each and every kick is for maximum
impact. The sparing I see in club, even though it is the same rules as WTF seems to be significantly different, because of this attitude guard is never
down and the sparing is a lot more brutal. Each to their own, but to discount a high impact kick and modify it may be good for points sparing, but the original still has its value.

what part of the foot do you break with at your club?

 

[ATC]

The spinning heel kick (where connection is made with the heel )may not be as effective in competition where the main goal is to gain points in sparing, but I believe it has merit as a kick for high impact. I know I sure as hell don't want to ever be on the receiving
end of one. In the club I am in the spinning crescent kick is discouraged in the coloured belts until you have the spinning kick down pat, as with developing students they can be confused when learning the spinning hook. The Master of my club came out in the early 70s and before that trained military, both Korean and American. I think that he is not a fan of using
TKD simply for points sparing, but still tries to instill in his instructors the traditional elements involved in TKD. Each and every kick is for maximum
impact. The sparing I see in club, even though it is the same rules as WTF seems to be significantly different, because of this attitude guard is never
down and the sparing is a lot more brutal. Each to their own, but to discount a high impact kick and modify it may be good for points sparing, but the original still has its value.

Very valid and I agree to some point. We were taught both ways and can certianly do both ways. But with the foot pointed you can still hit with the heel albeit the bottom of the heel, but the kick has more whip and power with the foot pointed and using the hip to whip through the kick. Just a faster kick which adds the power. it is not just for point sparring. I have seen to many KO'd in the dojang with this kick when we spar, and we are not sparring for just points.