Hard Contact - Necessary or Not?

Matt Stone

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How many Chinese stylists out there actually mix it up and run their techniques against an uncooperative opponent?

How hard do you hit each other? How hard is too hard?

Just some questions...

Enjoy.
 

Touch Of Death

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Matt Stone said:
How many Chinese stylists out there actually mix it up and run their techniques against an uncooperative opponent?

How hard do you hit each other? How hard is too hard?

Just some questions...

Enjoy.
Too hard is when he never comes back to the studio again.
Sean (www.iemat.com)
 
C

c2kenpo

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Matt Stone said:
How many Chinese stylists out there actually mix it up and run their techniques against an uncooperative opponent?

How hard do you hit each other? How hard is too hard?

Just some questions...

Enjoy.

Too hard is when you hurt your training partner.

And as Sean says they never come back to the studio and maybe not your dinner table either.

I do play with some of my partners but we always communicate how far thigns should go. Besides :uhyeah: if we don't tell him what were are doing then he will be a perfect body.

Dave Gunzburg
 
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Matt Stone

Matt Stone

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c2kenpo said:
Too hard is when you hurt your training partner.

Hurt him/her how? Knocked to the floor unable to breathe? Walking away with nearly instant bruising? Sore for days afterwards?

Or hurt in that they actually felt the impact?

I'm not trying to set people up - some folks have commercial schools in which "excessive" force is actually making contact, no matter how slight. In other schools, if you don't knock the person down when you hit them, you are doing a disservice to your training partner for not providing them sufficient impetus to get out of the way...
 

loki09789

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There is a difference between hurt and injure.

Hurt: Pain, bruising, maybe bloody lip/nose, soreness from intensity

injure: Torn this, broken that.... something that requires RICE and possible medical attention and takes you out of active training time.
 

Jade Tigress

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loki09789 said:
There is a difference between hurt and injure.

Hurt: Pain, bruising, maybe bloody lip/nose, soreness from intensity

injure: Torn this, broken that.... something that requires RICE and possible medical attention and takes you out of active training time.
Good distinction. Getting hurt needs to be expected at times if you're going to be in MA, getting injured because of an opponents lack of control shouldn't.

(Now, if you injure yourself because of an improperly performed technique, over extention, attempting techniques beyond your training, etc. is another story :) )
 

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Matt Stone said:
How many Chinese stylists out there actually mix it up and run their techniques against an uncooperative opponent?

Well, I dont train in the CMA, but in the arts in which I do train, yes, I like to get in and mix it up at a hard pace. IMO, that is really the only way you're gonna be able to tell if your tech. is gonna work, and thats to do it with 'aliveness'

How hard do you hit each other? How hard is too hard?

Too hard is when one or both walk away with a serious injury. IE- Sprain, break, torn ligament/muscle, etc. Your average bumps and bruises are to be expected.

Mike
 
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c2kenpo

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Matt Stone said:
Hurt him/her how? Knocked to the floor unable to breathe? Walking away with nearly instant bruising? Sore for days afterwards?

Or hurt in that they actually felt the impact?

I'm not trying to set people up - some folks have commercial schools in which "excessive" force is actually making contact, no matter how slight. In other schools, if you don't knock the person down when you hit them, you are doing a disservice to your training partner for not providing them sufficient impetus to get out of the way...

Actually I should have made that distinction between hurt and injure. I did mean injure your training partner.
I take quite a good hit and have never been injured beyond a small cut or bloody lip, however have seen students get too agreesive and manage to knock someone out or even twist/ hyperextend a limb. That is what I ment.
Unfortunaly I did expect to get bruised ribs..so..some old school in me.

Dave
 

Cruentus

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Matt Stone said:
How many Chinese stylists out there actually mix it up and run their techniques against an uncooperative opponent?

How hard do you hit each other? How hard is too hard?

Just some questions...

Enjoy.

Not a chinese stylest here, but an old friend of mine was. He hooked with one of the most prominent hard styles in a province next to Hunan (Gue-jo is how you say it, no idea how to spell it :eek: )

Anyhow, he lived there for over 3 years and studies under this guy. It is about as traditional of a style as you can get. He trained privately with him almost every day.

As most traditional Gung Fu styles are, the style is entirely form based. Yet, they sparred around frequently, hard contact, and this master would show my friend how to apply techniques in his forms.

So, my guess is that whether or not sparring is included would be based off the instructors preference.

:asian:
 
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Matt Stone

Matt Stone

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Tulisan said:
So, my guess is that whether or not sparring is included would be based off the instructors preference.

Interesting segue... Is sparring required (i.e. "free sparring" a la kickboxing or some such activity?)? How much impact does sparring have?
 

Cruentus

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Matt Stone said:
Interesting segue... Is sparring required (i.e. "free sparring" a la kickboxing or some such activity?)? How much impact does sparring have?

I don't think it was required in beginning levels, although I believe in higher levels you had 2 man forms, then free sparring.

My friend would basically ask him stuff like, "how would you handle someone trying to grapple with you," so with permission, he'd ask my friend to try to grapple with him. and he'd show how the movements in his forms could be used against a grappler. Or, he'd ask how to apply a movement in a fight, so the master would have my friend attack him a certian way, and he'd apply the move. They didn't wear gear, and impact was only as hard as my buddy wanted to make it. I'd say about medium contact by his description, with only enough to "let the guy know" in soft areas, such as groin attacks.

I should mention that there were internal elements, even though it was a hard style, such as "Iron Shirt" type stuff. I learned the basics of how to tap into that from him (I am no expert on the subject though)...quite interesting to say the least.

I should also mention that this instructor also could teach Hsing-I, an internal style as well.

:asian:
 
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Matt Stone

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I guess I meant my comment in a more generic way...

Some folks avoid contact like the plague. I attribute the loss of most beginning students in Yili to a fear of contact. We don't start out smacking the beginners around (much), but they watch the more senior students duking it out and turn and run...

What I meant was, in the opinion of folks in this thread, how important is "free" sparring, and to what degree does heavy contact impact sparring?
 

Cruentus

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Matt Stone said:
I guess I meant my comment in a more generic way...

Some folks avoid contact like the plague. I attribute the loss of most beginning students in Yili to a fear of contact. We don't start out smacking the beginners around (much), but they watch the more senior students duking it out and turn and run...

What I meant was, in the opinion of folks in this thread, how important is "free" sparring, and to what degree does heavy contact impact sparring?

My personal opinion is that I don't see how one can learn how to really fight if there isn't some degree of live training. Competitive sparring isn't nessicary, some kind of sparring is. And, I think that advanced students should be doing hard contact. I think that many traditional Chinese styles see it the same way, as the advanced students often graduate from traditional forms, to 2-hand forms, to freesparring. Again, I am not a Chinese stylest, but this is my understanding.

What does everybody else think?
 
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kajupaul

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Its kinda hard to use a uncooperative training partner becouse you are not necasarily going to use hard hits on him.you might be doing a technique in a real situation that requires a temple strike or such that helps him cooperate.A good resisting traing partner will be unruley until he knows he's be hurt or stunned.If im using a partner who acts like a fool and keeps resisting,I might just stun him a little bit to calm him down.
 
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Matt Stone

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kajupaul said:
Its kinda hard to use a uncooperative training partner becouse you are not necasarily going to use hard hits on him.you might be doing a technique in a real situation that requires a temple strike or such that helps him cooperate.A good resisting traing partner will be unruley until he knows he's be hurt or stunned.If im using a partner who acts like a fool and keeps resisting,I might just stun him a little bit to calm him down.

Isn't having a cooperative partner unrealistic? How can you really judge, even at a scaled down level, your actual ability if your partner a) knows what is coming and b) is ready to comply with the technique before its thrown?

Doesn't working with a resistant partner, requiring you to have to "stun" him a tad to get him compliant, create a more realistic training situation?

Discuss...
 

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I'm a CMAist solely and I believe in contact and hard contact. I don't think it is wise for the duration of your school to have the intro/beginner people watching the hard contact, but there needs to be contact at some point. I train for San Shou which is a Chinese full contact form of fighting, so getting bruises isn't abnormal; getting knocked out isn't too extremely rare either though. In order to know for myself that I could protect myself I needed to be hit fast and hard to see if I could stick to my principles and actually perform what I train. Thats just me though.



As far as CMA in general, I think many don't realize that they are full of hard contact, just not the way most think. We do lots of chi sau which is translated to "sticky hands". Its basically two people connecting hands and beginning to throw punches and different techniques. It goes very slow at first so you learn to yield and move, you learn exactly how to use your body and pull off certain techniques. I've never seen a better way to learn to go from technique to technique smoothly and effectively than chi sau. In advanced levels there is lots of hard contact and fast speeds, throws, sweeps, etc...

It solves the resisting opponent issue and the hard contact issue in one exercise.




7sm
 

MJS

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kajupaul said:
Its kinda hard to use a uncooperative training partner becouse you are not necasarily going to use hard hits on him.you might be doing a technique in a real situation that requires a temple strike or such that helps him cooperate.A good resisting traing partner will be unruley until he knows he's be hurt or stunned.If im using a partner who acts like a fool and keeps resisting,I might just stun him a little bit to calm him down.

If you're going to be taking it to that level, then it might require wearing gear. You'll be able to then do those hard shots while still keeping your 'attacker' safe for the most part.

Mike
 

Touch Of Death

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Touch'O'Death said:
Too hard is when he never comes back to the studio again.
Sean (www.iemat.com)
I'll quote myself here. One of my most regetted moments is when a brown belt joined from an affiliated EPAK school. On his first day we sparred and bam, he swept me right off my feet. I got back up and at this moment he switched stances to where his lead hand was down and his rear hand high; suppose he felt confident enough at this point to assume the new fighting style. Well, I suppose I was a little mad, but I wasn't consiously out to hurt him(I don't think), but I took one look at the arm, just hanging there, and I pulldrag kicked his elbow. Wouldn't you know? His arm broke and we never saw him again. Tack that up to an oops.
Sean
(edit PS, I was a brown belt at the time myself)
(www.iemat)
 
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kajupaul

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Doesn't working with a resistant partner, requiring you to have to "stun" him a tad to get him compliant, create a more realistic training situation?

yes,thats why theres no way around contact while practicing self defense,unless you have a good partner who knows when to stop resisting.If you are popping each other on a regular basis the body will get worn down.
 
R

RHD

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Matt Stone said:
How many Chinese stylists out there actually mix it up and run their techniques against an uncooperative opponent?

How hard do you hit each other? How hard is too hard?

Just some questions...

Enjoy.

This question sounds a bit like a troll...but I'll bite anyway.

I can't answer for the vast majority of CMA people. My experience has been that most of them do not train as hard or with as much intent as they claim. I am lucky however, as I only have a few private students and do not make my living from teaching.

We train fairly hard and like to mix it up with other systems. We drill with a reaonable level of contact, and constantly push that level higher...as high as safety and ability to train consistently will allow.

Were I teach is rented space from a friend's Kenpo school. We frequently spar with Kenpo, Wing Chun, sometimes Wrestlers, and/or pretty much anyone who has some control and doesn't take it personally. At this school we are ussually the ones who serve as a litmus test for others, or are regarded as the ones to play with to "step things up".


We don't hit exclusively either. There are locks, takedowns, throws, submissions all mixed in with striking and kicking, and almost everything is allowable as long as there is enough control on both sides.

Matt Stone, how about you? Did you ask to troll out some CMA, or are you genuinely curious. There is good CMA, and there is no-contact, forms only CMA, I hope you don't make assumptions if you've only seen the latter.
Mike
 
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