Hapkido falling skills

[mastercole]

At age 52, i am not really into all the falling drills I experienced in Hapkido years ago. I can still roll and fall well, I still practice them occasionally on a mat, but I don't think it would be healthy for me to do that over and over and over for hours on end.

So if you can demonstrate that you can fall, roll, etc well enough, how necessary is it to perform a lot of falls and rolls in training, or that an a modification that is not possible in Hapkido?

 

[zDom]

At age 52, i am not really into all the falling drills I experienced in Hapkido years ago. I can still roll and fall well, I still practice them occasionally on a mat, but I don't think it would be healthy for me to do that over and over and over for hours on end.

So if you can demonstrate that you can fall, roll, etc well enough, how necessary is it to perform a lot of falls and rolls in training, or that an a modification that is not possible in Hapkido?

That really depends on the type of hapkido, the school and the instructor — and fellow students.

Speaking only for Moo Sul Kwan hapkido:

I gather that other schools don't place as much emphasis on throwing as Moo Sul Kwan hapkido. The Musulkwan in Korea was known for its full-circle throwing and Park maintained that focus in establishing his curriculum in the U.S. On a hip throw, we don't let them slide off to the side; the person thrown is to go completely over the hip and land so their feet are straight forward in relation to the thrower. The person is being thrown perpendicularly into the mat, so there really isn't a rollout possible.

The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE. I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person.

It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me.

It takes repetition to get first a familiarity with the correct movements and eventually a mastery of a throw is to have someone who falls well enough to endure those falls without being injured.

That means great falling technique that is trained to the point of second nature and a good mat. Our "mat" is what some describe as "floating floor" — it is firm on the surface, but the whole floor moves on force-absorbing supports.

So falling is very, very, VERY important to learning hapkido at MSK.

Falling is also important to getting a deeper understanding of the throw itself.



That said, if you have already studied hapkido for many years and are of advanced age, and you still fall well then you probably don't need to
hit the mat as often as you did coming up through the ranks, IMO.

Personally, I think some falling is good in that it keeps your insides from being as "sloshy" — our bodies are constantly remodeling either stronger or weaker. It is good for personal health and well being to be hardy, to be able to endure, rather than being fragile. Falling down happens in life. Better that the body is maintaining a certain baseline than to fall one day and be injured from having grown weaker and more fragile (other than what age does to us — but we can fend that off to some extent).

So ... hours on end? I don't think that would be necessary anymore. Even coming up through the ranks, we don't fall for HOURS on end — maybe five or 10 or 15 minutes in class for basic falling training then some additional falls while practicing technique or throwing.

For example, we may be training throws and do 9 fits and one throw. Or three fits and one throw.


Doing basic falling drills a few times per week and actually being thrown maybe five or 10 times should be enough to maintain, I would think.

But you need to listen to your body (I can only hear mine and do my best to listen closely to it).

But somebody coming up through the ranks of MSK hapkido? If they can't fall, how can they participate? How can they pass on the curriculum if they were to reach dan ranks?

In the context of Moo Sul Kwan, I don't think I can with a clean conscience advance someone if they are not learning and training the entire curriculum. If someone was to learn to throw without falling for anyone else, it would become incomplete — maybe we could come up with some "Hapkido-based Hoshin Sul" but it wouldn't be the same as training in the complete art.


By the way, Mastecole: I realize you probably know most or all of this stuff. I'm just including it for others not familiar with falling/hapkido who might read this thread.

 

[Buka]

Age is always a factor, especially with a lot of hard miles on the old tires. As for doing anything "over and over and over for hours on end" I feel if we did it properly the first time in our lives where we spent hours and hours, days and days etc, it probably stuck with us. I sure hope so, because I'm not about to do some of the things I did in training years ago.

 

[puunui]

The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE. I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person. It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me.

Not necessarily. If all you want to do is to learn to throw people, then all you need is a partner that is willing to take falls for your. Under my original hapkido teacher, old students would come from the mainland and other places to learn for short periods of time, and during those sessions, I and others would take all of the falls for the visiting student, the logic of my instructor being that this student is here only for a short period of time, and therefore his/her time is best spent learning, not helping us learn by taking falls for us.

 

[zDom]

Not necessarily. If all you want to do is to learn to throw people, then all you need is a partner that is willing to take falls for your. Under my original hapkido teacher, old students would come from the mainland and other places to learn for short periods of time, and during those sessions, I and others would take all of the falls for the visiting student, the logic of my instructor being that this student is here only for a short period of time, and therefore his/her time is best spent learning, not helping us learn by taking falls for us.

I know I am going to regret this, this being "responding to puunui", but here goes:

Evidently given you rank and experience, you must know a lot about hapkido but I am beginning to wonder if English is a second language for you.

You wrote the above quote responding to:

"The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE. I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person. It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me."

You can't be responding with "not necessarily" to "The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE" as your comment supports this as you state "If all you want to do is to learn to throw people, then all you need is a partner that is willing to take falls for you"

Nor can it be responding to "I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person" as as you haven't suggested any equipment.

So the "not necessarily" can only assume refers to my statement that:

"It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me."


On a short-term basis, sure: this can be waived. For what it's worth, for private one-on-one lessons, I do not ask for reciprocity.

Somewhat in line with your reasoning for visiting students, I figure they are paying a premium for instruction so a one-for-one reciprocity does not seem appropriate to me.

However, in the long term study of Moo Sul Kwan hapkido, there are things that are LEARNED about throwing by FALLING, just as there are things learned about joint manipulation by receiving technique. I feel it deprives the student of a complete understanding of throwing to not learn to fall as well as depriving them of an important self-defense and general well being skill.

Other hapkido systems that do not place such an emphasis on throwing may not agree that it is important.

Having watched that 1960s footage of Ji Han-Jae, it looks as if falling was at least somewhat important to his study of hapkido. I noticed a lot of similarities.

 

[puunui]

Evidently given you rank and experience, you must know a lot about hapkido but I am beginning to wonder if English is a second language for you.

No it is not. I was born in Hawaii. So were my parents, as well as my father's parents. How about you? Is english a second language for you?

You wrote the above quote responding to:

"The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE. I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person. It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me."

You can't be responding with "not necessarily" to "The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE" as your comment supports this as you state "If all you want to do is to learn to throw people, then all you need is a partner that is willing to take falls for you"

Nor can it be responding to "I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person" as as you haven't suggested any equipment.

So the "not necessarily" can only assume refers to my statement that:

"It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me."

Right, I included the first two sentence so people would understand what the topic was. I (obviously) responded to the last sentence from the part I quoted from you. Reading the above, I think you misunderstood that.

On a short-term basis, sure: this can be waived. For what it's worth, for private one-on-one lessons, I do not ask for reciprocity. Somewhat in line with your reasoning for visiting students, I figure they are paying a premium for instruction so a one-for-one reciprocity does not seem appropriate to me.

My instructor didn't charge the visiting students. I don't either.

However, in the long term study of Moo Sul Kwan hapkido, there are things that are LEARNED about throwing by FALLING, just as there are things learned about joint manipulation by receiving technique. I feel it deprives the student of a complete understanding of throwing to not learn to fall as well as depriving them of an important self-defense and general well being skill.

Other hapkido systems that do not place such an emphasis on throwing may not agree that it is important.

When I first studied Gracie Jiujitsu, Relson took all of the falls for me. When I asked him about it, he said his job was to take the falls, and my job was to learn how to throw. So he would disagree with you about the importance of learning falling in order to learn how to throw. His opinion is that you do not need to know how to fall in order to learn how to throw, in much the same way that you don't need to get shot in order to shoot someone.

Having watched that 1960s footage of Ji Han-Jae, it looks as if falling was at least somewhat important to his study of hapkido. I noticed a lot of similarities.

Those were demonstrations, so of course falling is included for the dramatic effect. But at the Daly City dojang, the beginning students did not do techniques to conclusion. There was no falling, no nak bup; GM Ji never taught it. I already knew how to do nak bup, but the other students learned that primarily from Master Kim, who used to visit from Los Angeles and would teach classes every once in a while during his visits. But anyway, apparently GM Ji also disagrees with you about the importance of falling to learning hapkido. at least in the beginning stages.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think you need to know how to fall in order to throw, because then you'll know how the other guy is going to potentially save themselves. A good throw will kill the other guy and the uke needs to know how to save themselves. When you get older and the body wears out, then you can skip out on taking falls. This is very common.

That said, the question that comes to my mind is how can I preserve my body so I can take falls when I'm older?

 

[zDom]

OK. I should have known better.

Puuni/Glenn:

Please accept my sincere best wishes for your father in this trying time and I wish you the best of luck in your hapkido training.

We probably have more in common than a third party would think given your mode of "discussing" things.

But whatever our differences or similarities are as far as hapkido, I know this to be true:

There is no way for me to have a productive discussion with you. I don't have to the time to defend and re-explain every sentence I type.

Please extend the courtesy of not replying to any of my posts and I'll extend the same courtesy to you.

 

[puunui]

We probably have more in common than a third party would think given your mode of "discussing" things.

My mode is to bring up facts. What is your mode?

But whatever our differences or similarities are as far as hapkido, I know this to be true:There is no way for me to have a productive discussion with you. I don't have to the time to defend and re-explain every sentence I type.

When I write something, I assume that at least one person out there will disagree. Understanding that makes for more productive discussions because I realize that I will have to defend my position.

Please extend the courtesy of not replying to any of my posts and I'll extend the same courtesy to you.

Sorry, can't do that.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I have limited grappling experience, a few years of competitive Judo, but I would humbly suggest falling doesn't do anything to help me learn to throw. Falling is of course a crucial skill but I can't grasp a throw by being Uke. I have to see it done and attempt it myself.

The intricacies of a throw were not really taught to me in my Taekwondo experience, by which I mean I learned one throw as a defense to a choke from behind and no set ups at all. I never took a throw in Taekwondo when I was learning this technique. I do now, for my students. The reason for this is again safety-two or three years of competitive Judo has taught me to fall better than I can teach them especially if the thrower has trouble and they don't fall perfectly. Plus I'd rather hurt myself than them.

Because I know it will be asked, of course I teach breakfalls. But good breakfalls don't come from drilling, they come from being thrown in a bunch of different ways and on puzzle mats over concrete is not the time or place for a Taekwondo student, particularly a kid, to be thrown a bunch of different ways

 

[zDom]

... I would humbly suggest falling doesn't do anything to help me learn to throw. Falling is of course a crucial skill but I can't grasp a throw by being Uke. I have to see it done and attempt it myself.

I didn't mean to imply that a throw should be taught by throwing the person being taught; I agree isn't necessary for someone to get a basic idea of the throw.

But once learned, falling for a throw on a regular basis provides yet another perspective that can provide a deeper understanding of the throw.

...on puzzle mats over concrete is not the time or place for a Taekwondo student, particularly a kid, to be thrown a bunch of different ways

I am not going to let anyone throw ME on a puzzle mats over a concrete floor — and I've been falling for 20 years.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I didn't mean to imply that a throw should be taught by throwing the person being taught; I agree isn't necessary for someone to get a basic idea of the throw.

But once learned, falling for a throw on a regular basis provides yet another perspective that can provide a deeper understanding of the throw.



I am not going to let anyone throw ME on a puzzle mats over a concrete floor — and I've been falling for 20 years.

Yeah, falling for the throw can provide another perspective but for me it's more how to make sure I get the throw I want in competition than anything else.

When I say "puzzle mats" I meant the thick ones they use for tkd tournaments, not just the skinny ones. The floor is tiled, but it is suspended and there's a little give. I usually use elbow and knee pads too.

 

[dancingalone]

When I first studied Gracie Jiujitsu, Relson took all of the falls for me. When I asked him about it, he said his job was to take the falls, and my job was to learn how to throw. So he would disagree with you about the importance of learning falling in order to learn how to throw. His opinion is that you do not need to know how to fall in order to learn how to throw, in much the same way that you don't need to get shot in order to shoot someone.

From my perspective, falling and throwing/pinning are indelibly linked. You need to feel the technique to understand the differences in variation. With an outward wrist turn, I can break someone's wrist or I compel him to take to the floor as quickly as possible or I can merely unbalance him and force him to fall that way. I think it's hard to appreciate the necessary adjustments for each effect without also being intimate with the feeling of each on the receiving side.

 

[puunui]

From my perspective, falling and throwing/pinning are indelibly linked. You need to feel the technique to understand the differences in variation. With an outward wrist turn, I can break someone's wrist or I compel him to take to the floor as quickly as possible or I can merely unbalance him and force him to fall that way. I think it's hard to appreciate the necessary adjustments for each effect without also being intimate with the feeling of each on the receiving side.

At the same time, I think there is benefit from practicing techniques on people that do not know how to fall and are not readily inclined to breakfall for you and instead resist with all their might your throw. I think that is more realistic than practicing with a partner that is ready and willing to fall for you, because that is how it will be in a actual situation. Personally, I am not all that into doing wrist manipulation throws especially and would rather go for the lock than the throw.

 

[Makalakumu]

At the same time, I think there is benefit from practicing techniques on people that do not know how to fall and are not readily inclined to breakfall for you and instead resist with all their might your throw. I think that is more realistic than practicing with a partner that is ready and willing to fall for you, because that is how it will be in a actual situation.

That's what white belts are for...LOL!

 

[puunui]

That's what white belts are for...LOL!

Yeah, but generally you can only practice white belt level techniques with white belts. White belts start quitting if you want to use them as a crash test dummy all the time.

 

[Makalakumu]

Yeah, I know, I'm kidding, but that said. It's really hard to practice realistically against someone who doesn't know how to fall, because of the risk of injury. Judo style randori is about as close as you can get IMO.

 

[puunui]

Yeah, I know, I'm kidding, but that said. It's really hard to practice realistically against someone who doesn't know how to fall, because of the risk of injury. Judo style randori is about as close as you can get IMO.

That's why I favor joint locking rather than throwing. You throw someone who doesn't know how to fall, and if they hit their head, they could end up dead, or worse paralyzed with brain damage.

 

[mastercole]

That's why I favor joint locking rather than throwing. You throw someone who doesn't know how to fall, and if they hit their head, they could end up dead, or worse paralyzed with brain damage.

That is a serious concern.

 

[puunui]

That is a serious concern.

I believe so. I also think that there comes a point when training in hapkido where you start to expect the opponent to flip over when you do your technique. Then, when the real situation comes up, the technique doesn't go like how you expect. It's not easy to flip someone over by twisting their wrist, people will do all sorts of stuff to avoid that from happening. Not so if you train in a dojang when students are conditioned to go with it and flip when their partner is doing the technique "correctly".