Grappling With The Knife!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Okay I was blogging today and posted this post on a recent training session.
I hope we can start, discuss and have an interesting topic regarding grappling with the knife.

Here is the post from my blog The Instinctive Edge!

 

[terryl965]

Good arrticle Brian and you are right we do not get to pick whether or not we go to the ground, but we do get to pick whether or not we stay on the ground. Hence why we need to practice getting back to our feet as fast as possiblle when a weapon is in play. I have always said to all my people the ground is not the place to be in a fight but you will find yourself there alot of the time, what makes a strong fighter better than some is how fast they can get back to stable grounds and controlling there opponet.

 

[jarrod]

interesting blog!

for my part, i actually prefer to be on the ground with a knife weilding attacker. this has more to do with my relative comfort on the ground rather than any sort of tactical advantage though. from a dominant top position it is relatively easy isolate the knife & attack from there. from the guard you can tie up their knife & attack their balance with your lower body. like i said though, it's relative to one's own skill set, & not a uniform approach i would recommend for everybody.

one drill i occasionally do with my students (they are sport/recreational grapplers but we touch on self-defense from time to time) is in the middle of a grappling match, a third person will throw a training knife on the mat to simulate an improvised weapon becoming available (broken bottle, knife that fell off the counter, whatever). they then have to decide whether to go for the blade or press their attack as is. it's a pretty interesting drill. sometimes we add mma gloves with striking, simulated eye gouges, bites, etc.

jf

 

[jks9199]

Personally -- I'd discourage going to the ground if you're unarmed against a knife. You lose too much mobility, and you add the complication of simply falling on the blade against the ground.

If you're unarmed fighting someone with a knife -- I think you want as much mobility as you can get. Of course, I get a little unorthodox in some of my unarmed defense against weapons... I don't worry much about the weapon, and go straight to the user!

If you're both armed with a knife... I still don't like the idea of going down... too easy to get that blade caught in a useless position...

Of course, what I like doesn't have a bit to do with what might happen -- but if I have to grapple with a knife, I want to stay on my feet more than go down. Ideally -- I don't want to grapple at all with a knife... And if I go down -- you have to remember that an escape that pulls the limb out could leave you cut... You think two sweaty people are slick... blood's worse!

 

[jarrod]

Personally -- I'd discourage going to the ground if you're unarmed against a knife. You lose too much mobility, and you add the complication of simply falling on the blade against the ground.

If you're unarmed fighting someone with a knife -- I think you want as much mobility as you can get. Of course, I get a little unorthodox in some of my unarmed defense against weapons... I don't worry much about the weapon, and go straight to the user!

If you're both armed with a knife... I still don't like the idea of going down... too easy to get that blade caught in a useless position...

Of course, what I like doesn't have a bit to do with what might happen -- but if I have to grapple with a knife, I want to stay on my feet more than go down. Ideally -- I don't want to grapple at all with a knife... And if I go down -- you have to remember that an escape that pulls the limb out could leave you cut... You think two sweaty people are slick... blood's worse!

if i'm unarmed & on the feet against a knife, i'm not fighting, i'm running!

failing that, i'm securing an improvised weapon.

as for knife-on-knife, standing or on the ground...it just doesn't happen. at least not enough to make it take up a significant portion of your training time. i still train it for fun & to develop attributes, but realistically a knife wielding attacker isn't interested in a duel.

jf

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

if i'm unarmed & on the feet against a knife, i'm not fighting, i'm running!

failing that, i'm securing an improvised weapon.

as for knife-on-knife, standing or on the ground...it just doesn't happen. at least not enough to make it take up a significant portion of your training time. i still train it for fun & to develop attributes, but realistically a knife wielding attacker isn't interested in a duel.

jf

Hey Jarrod,

In my county where I live probably 70% or more of the guy's walking around have a folding knife on them. So the chance of a knife encounter is possible and also a knife on knife encounter. I will concur with you that a duel where both know a knife is going to be involved is probably almost non existent in this day in age. Most attackers and that would include knife wielding attackers want an advantage. They do not want their prey having a tool to equalize the situation. Running is always the number one option. However, that option may be unavailable if you are with your wife, girlfriend, kid's, etc. Now imagine this you are in a bar fight or any physical encounter and it goes to the ground and the other guy deploys a knife. Maybe you have a knife that you can deploy or not. Another scenario to think about is you are at home asleep and someone breaks into your house and you hear a noise and you pick up a tool ie. possibly a knife. (for me it will be ching ching pow) You walk around a corner and walla there is someone standing there with a knife in his hand and game is on. The potential for violence and possibility of a tool or tools entering into the equation is very high. Particularly when you think that we as human beings want in general to survive and most people will seek an advantage. ie. a tool.

The tool training that we utilize in IRT can be used whether I have a tool in my hand or not. The same movement applies either way. Just with different consequences.

Now here is a fun drill for you during your next BJJ class get some folding knife trainers and have each of your guy's have one in their waist band or belt. Then allow them to roll and if they want to pull out a knife. You might be blown away with what will happen.

Oh and to put something on the line a little the loser buy's the other guy a GI. That should get the adrenaline going as BJJ GI's cost a fortune. ( I should know I have a bunch )

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Speaking of tool based personal protection in this article a rapid arnis guy in New Zealand took down a couple of young punks while holding a mag light. He also disarmed one of them who had a knife.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4797120a23016.html

 

[jks9199]

Knife "fights" are more common than many think -- but they aren't kali-arnis-fencing type duels. The real knife fights I've investigated or studied reports of more typically involve more stealth and surprise deployment than a dueling situation. They may simply slash at each other pretty furiously... or the fight might look more like a fist fight, until the blood is seen.

 

[MA-Caver]

Speaking of tool based personal protection in this article a rapid arnis guy in New Zealand took down a couple of young punks while holding a mag light. He also disarmed one of them who had a knife.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4797120a23016.html

Good article and a can't be helped to be funny read. What happened to those two punk kids is going to be an embarrassment for the rest of their lives...
Steak knives, chased out, plastic bags over the faces (think suffocation hazard), flyswatters and his own mother just walking by. :lol:
*ahem* ok serious now

Going to ground with the possibility of a knife is very scary and I agree with Brian/JKS that the whole dynamics of the confrontation changes when a blade appears. Some of the scars I have are a direct result of some encounters like this.
Getting up as quickly as possible is important but if you're involved with restraining/holding the knife arm it might not be as easy as one may think. Also getting up allows the knife wielder to do so likewise. Just a matter of getting up faster and being at the ready or already performing the counter as the knife is struggling to get up.
Arts with specified ground techniques have an definite advantage on the ground while those involving joint locks and stick fighting have their advantage.
The biggest fear I think is trying to maintain focus on the knife and forgetting everything else. I've used my knife as a distraction. That's something else to consider while practicing/training.

 

[jarrod]

Hey Jarrod,

In my county where I live probably 70% or more of the guy's walking around have a folding knife on them. So the chance of a knife encounter is possible and also a knife on knife encounter. I will concur with you that a duel where both know a knife is going to be involved is probably almost non existent in this day in age. Most attackers and that would include knife wielding attackers want an advantage. They do not want their prey having a tool to equalize the situation. Running is always the number one option. However, that option may be unavailable if you are with your wife, girlfriend, kid's, etc. Now imagine this you are in a bar fight or any physical encounter and it goes to the ground and the other guy deploys a knife. Maybe you have a knife that you can deploy or not. Another scenario to think about is you are at home asleep and someone breaks into your house and you hear a noise and you pick up a tool ie. possibly a knife. (for me it will be ching ching pow) You walk around a corner and walla there is someone standing there with a knife in his hand and game is on. The potential for violence and possibility of a tool or tools entering into the equation is very high. Particularly when you think that we as human beings want in general to survive and most people will seek an advantage. ie. a tool.

The tool training that we utilize in IRT can be used whether I have a tool in my hand or not. The same movement applies either way. Just with different consequences.

Now here is a fun drill for you during your next BJJ class get some folding knife trainers and have each of your guy's have one in their waist band or belt. Then allow them to roll and if they want to pull out a knife. You might be blown away with what will happen.

Oh and to put something on the line a little the loser buy's the other guy a GI. That should get the adrenaline going as BJJ GI's cost a fortune. ( I should know I have a bunch )

1) i wholly disagree about kids. if faced with a knife, i fully intend to shove the nearest kid between me & my attacker! hopefully he will be cute enough that the guy won't stab him but hey, it's not my call.

2) i've heard of that folding knife drill & i think it would be much more realistic representation of what is likely to happen in a knife on knife encounter. still, i'd be interested in knowing just how often it happens, even in an area where most folks carry a folder.

3) *ahem*, for the record, i teach shingitai jujitsu, not brazilian. nothing against brazilian, i just like to give credit where it's due.

jf

 

[Rich Parsons]

interesting blog!

for my part, i actually prefer to be on the ground with a knife weilding attacker. this has more to do with my relative comfort on the ground rather than any sort of tactical advantage though. from a dominant top position it is relatively easy isolate the knife & attack from there. from the guard you can tie up their knife & attack their balance with your lower body. like i said though, it's relative to one's own skill set, & not a uniform approach i would recommend for everybody.

one drill i occasionally do with my students (they are sport/recreational grapplers but we touch on self-defense from time to time) is in the middle of a grappling match, a third person will throw a training knife on the mat to simulate an improvised weapon becoming available (broken bottle, knife that fell off the counter, whatever). they then have to decide whether to go for the blade or press their attack as is. it's a pretty interesting drill. sometimes we add mma gloves with striking, simulated eye gouges, bites, etc.

jf

Jarrod,

I have trained with some guys who were much better than me on the ground. The one thing common in all that training is that if I surprise them with a knife they all seem to get cut, and this leads to them being behind.

Even knowing when there was a knife was going to be present we were not able to stop the blade even if one was in the mount.


Are you willing to accept stabs to the leg to recognize the knife being present? Are you willing to take cuts and stabs to try to immobilize the weapon?

I know from the bottom some times you have to do what you have to do, but if you are on the top, could you not get up and run away?

Hey Jarrod,

In my county where I live probably 70% or more of the guy's walking around have a folding knife on them. So the chance of a knife encounter is possible and also a knife on knife encounter. I will concur with you that a duel where both know a knife is going to be involved is probably almost non existent in this day in age. Most attackers and that would include knife wielding attackers want an advantage. They do not want their prey having a tool to equalize the situation. Running is always the number one option. However, that option may be unavailable if you are with your wife, girlfriend, kid's, etc. Now imagine this you are in a bar fight or any physical encounter and it goes to the ground and the other guy deploys a knife. Maybe you have a knife that you can deploy or not. Another scenario to think about is you are at home asleep and someone breaks into your house and you hear a noise and you pick up a tool ie. possibly a knife. (for me it will be ching ching pow) You walk around a corner and walla there is someone standing there with a knife in his hand and game is on. The potential for violence and possibility of a tool or tools entering into the equation is very high. Particularly when you think that we as human beings want in general to survive and most people will seek an advantage. ie. a tool.

The tool training that we utilize in IRT can be used whether I have a tool in my hand or not. The same movement applies either way. Just with different consequences.

Now here is a fun drill for you during your next BJJ class get some folding knife trainers and have each of your guy's have one in their waist band or belt. Then allow them to roll and if they want to pull out a knife. You might be blown away with what will happen.

Oh and to put something on the line a little the loser buy's the other guy a GI. That should get the adrenaline going as BJJ GI's cost a fortune. ( I should know I have a bunch )

The times I have had knife encounters and had my knife on me, I have not had time to get it out. I was always to busy dealing with the opponents weapon or the threat was not there. i.e. someone reaches for a knife while they are in a car over ten plus feet from me.


I recommend this drill with folder trainers, as this forces people to learn to deploy their weapon form the ground and also to learn to defend against a weapon and not knowing if or when it might come.

 

[Nolerama]

Groundfighting with knives has always intrigued me. Thanks for blogging that, Brian. I think you would have to be even more aware that there's a knife when grappling.

What would be more of a priority: securing your opponent's weapon, or taking him out with your weapon first?

One of my friends said that if you're in bottom position, you might as well forget using a weapon. I disagreed, and entertained the thought with a push drill and an escrima stick. There's a lot of application for the stick while wrestling (even from guard: puno to the back of the head, chokes, etc.). I think the offensive possibilities multiply when one of the grapplers is using a live blade (vital organ strikes), but I don't think that would immediately disable the opponent.

I think I'm going to look into that more... My ground game completely changes when strikes are involved. It'll definitely change with a knife.

 

[jarrod]

Jarrod,

I have trained with some guys who were much better than me on the ground. The one thing common in all that training is that if I surprise them with a knife they all seem to get cut, and this leads to them being behind.

Even knowing when there was a knife was going to be present we were not able to stop the blade even if one was in the mount.


Are you willing to accept stabs to the leg to recognize the knife being present? Are you willing to take cuts and stabs to try to immobilize the weapon?

I know from the bottom some times you have to do what you have to do, but if you are on the top, could you not get up and run away?

sure, like i said before, running away is choice #1.

the thing is, i've had the opposite experience. meaning i've been on the ground unarmed against an opponent with a training blade, & taken few if any cuts. unarmed on the feet, i've done okay but not as well.

also i may not have made my thoughts perfectly clear in my first post. unarmed, starting on the feet, i'm not going to intentionally bring a knife wielding baddie to the ground. to do that i would have to first secure the weapon, & if i can do that, why bring it to the ground? what i meant was, if i am going to have a weapon presented on me i'd rather it be once i'm already in my most comfortable zone.

jf

 

[MA-Caver]

Jarrod,

I have trained with some guys who were much better than me on the ground. The one thing common in all that training is that if I surprise them with a knife they all seem to get cut, and this leads to them being behind.

Even knowing when there was a knife was going to be present we were not able to stop the blade even if one was in the mount.


Are you willing to accept stabs to the leg to recognize the knife being present? Are you willing to take cuts and stabs to try to immobilize the weapon?

I know from the bottom some times you have to do what you have to do, but if you are on the top, could you not get up and run away?

The times I have had knife encounters and had my knife on me, I have not had time to get it out. I was always to busy dealing with the opponents weapon or the threat was not there. i.e. someone reaches for a knife while they are in a car over ten plus feet from me.

I recommend this drill with folder trainers, as this forces people to learn to deploy their weapon form the ground and also to learn to defend against a weapon and not knowing if or when it might come.

One encounter I've had showed me that my own knife "attacks" are savage and quick, rapidly stabbing at any target of opportunity, much like puncturing an airbag to deflate it as quickly as possible rather than going for finesse and subtlety. As Rich asked... if one is willing to take multiple hits to complete their technique then by all means, but you're going to the hospital and racking up your stitch count... if you survive the trip.
On the ground or standing the key is immobilizing the immediate threat... the knife, you can roll over on it just as quick as getting stabbed/sliced by it. Get the blade OUT of the hand before trying anything else.
All your punches, pressure points aren't going to mean squat if your opponent/attacker still has a free hand to move that knife point/edge about your body. A blindly slashing/stabbing blade can be just as damaging as one clearly targeted.
One other thing to watch for... the knife hand switch... I've practiced during tv watching or whenever throwing my open blade from one hand to the next at varying distances/angles without watching the blade... so far I've yet to miss. The knife can just as easily switch from one hand to the next and back again... even on the ground. A fighter who is aware of everything during the heat of the moment may feel his opponent trying to subdue/restrain the hand holding the knife and make a quick flick of the wrist sending the blade to the other hand and ... well, there ya are.

 

[Rich Parsons]

sure, like i said before, running away is choice #1.

the thing is, i've had the opposite experience. meaning i've been on the ground unarmed against an opponent with a training blade, & taken few if any cuts. unarmed on the feet, i've done okay but not as well.

also i may not have made my thoughts perfectly clear in my first post. unarmed, starting on the feet, i'm not going to intentionally bring a knife wielding baddie to the ground. to do that i would have to first secure the weapon, & if i can do that, why bring it to the ground? what i meant was, if i am going to have a weapon presented on me i'd rather it be once i'm already in my most comfortable zone.

jf

Jarrod,

I will take you JJ as being much superior to any ground work I have done. What is the skill level of knife people attacking you?

I mean there are three types to easily define.

The Experts that know lots of baits and traps and make it hard for anyone even another expert to grapple with a knife on the ground.

The Total Novice who just goes crazy and stabs wildly not knowing what to do.

The partially trained person who attacks in the predecribed way.

The first one may not be the person you meet most often.

The second is more realistic.

The third is highly possible, but not what I train for.

I mean no disrespect to your skill or training, I am just trying to see what I am missing.

Thanks

 

[jks9199]

One encounter I've had showed me that my own knife "attacks" are savage and quick, rapidly stabbing at any target of opportunity, much like puncturing an airbag to deflate it as quickly as possible rather than going for finesse and subtlety. As Rich asked... if one is willing to take multiple hits to complete their technique then by all means, but you're going to the hospital and racking up your stitch count... if you survive the trip.
On the ground or standing the key is immobilizing the immediate threat... the knife, you can roll over on it just as quick as getting stabbed/sliced by it. Get the blade OUT of the hand before trying anything else.
All your punches, pressure points aren't going to mean squat if your opponent/attacker still has a free hand to move that knife point/edge about your body. A blindly slashing/stabbing blade can be just as damaging as one clearly targeted.
One other thing to watch for... the knife hand switch... I've practiced during tv watching or whenever throwing my open blade from one hand to the next at varying distances/angles without watching the blade... so far I've yet to miss. The knife can just as easily switch from one hand to the next and back again... even on the ground. A fighter who is aware of everything during the heat of the moment may feel his opponent trying to subdue/restrain the hand holding the knife and make a quick flick of the wrist sending the blade to the other hand and ... well, there ya are.

Great description of a knife attack! I'd have repped you if I could've...

Rory Miller offered 4 rules of real violent attacks in his book, Meditations on Violence. They are that real violence happens faster, closer, more unexpectedly, and with more force than you expect. This applies at least equally in knife attacks.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No doubt about that. Real fast and brutal.

 

[tempus]

I am far from being a knife fighter and have hardly any ground fighting experince, but found this topic interesting. When we practice knife defenses rule number one is run if you can. If forced to fight take control of the weapon.

Now I think all bets are off if the attacker is trainined knife fighter. I was in a class one day doing knife defense drills and I had just read an article are knife fighting. When I was attacking with a knife I would stab, technique was applied and defense was a success. I then tried what I read in the article, before I attacked I threw a front leg kick, the defender instictivly blocked the kick and I stabbed him (rubber knife of course). The next defender I faked a jabbed and the person instictivly blended on the punch and he got stabbed. What we learned was that there was a gap in our training and muscle memory was actually a problem when not trained to defend from this type of combination. Gave us something to think about.

-Gary

 

[jarrod]

right on ma-caver, good post.

Jarrod,

I will take you JJ as being much superior to any ground work I have done. What is the skill level of knife people attacking you?

I mean there are three types to easily define.

The Experts that know lots of baits and traps and make it hard for anyone even another expert to grapple with a knife on the ground.

The Total Novice who just goes crazy and stabs wildly not knowing what to do.

The partially trained person who attacks in the predecribed way.

The first one may not be the person you meet most often.

The second is more realistic.

The third is highly possible, but not what I train for.

I mean no disrespect to your skill or training, I am just trying to see what I am missing.

Thanks

no disrespect taken.

i've trained this with a variety of people, all of them with a fair amount of grappling experience & zero to moderate knife training.

i think the main thing you're missing is grapplers that train way on a regular basis. the first thing you want to do in a knife encounter is secure the weapon hand. for me, this is easier if i'm already engaged in grappling: the distance is closed already. i'm not saying i never get cut, but for me it's easier to secure the weapon than having to worry about closing the distance & secure the weapon at the same time.

jf

 

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