Good Instruction and Bad Instruction

PhotonGuy

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I just recently finished a bunch of classes at this place called FrontSight. FrontSight is primarily where you go to learn to shoot, you learn shooting skills and all sorts of defensive tactics and that is what I was learning when I was taking the classes there, but they do also teach knife fighting and unarmed self defense so although its not their primary field of study, they do teach some unarmed martial arts and lots of the instructors there do have backgrounds in unarmed fighting. Furthermore, as its been stated in the firearms board that a gun is a martial arts weapon albeit a modern one, to train with guns is the same thing as training with any other martial arts weapon such as a sword, bo staff, ect. We were taught stances to use while shooting and proper technique so shooting is by all means a martial art.

But aside from all that, the training and instruction was really good. We were encouraged to ask questions and one instructor even said that if we've taken shooting classes at other places to feel free to share what we learned there with the instructors as FrontSight could learn from us as well. When we were on the line doing drills we would shut up and train, but in between drills and before breaks we were free to discuss stuff with instructors and this one instructor even wanted us to ask at least two questions before we took our lunch break.

All that being said, this is one of the things that differentiates a good martial arts school from a bad martial arts school and this certainly includes dojos that teach unarmed martial arts. A sensei teaches the students but a sensei also learns from the students. As a matter of fact, you learn the most from teaching. There was this one sensei who said he was forever grateful to all his students, white belt through black belt, because they were also his teachers. A good sensei will know that they can always learn more and that includes learning from their students. A sensei who says students should just "shut up and train," and doesn't want to be asked questions is a poor teacher who probably won't produce students that learn much and furthermore such a sensei is very arrogant. Any sensei who thinks they know it all and they know the best method of teaching and they won't try to learn from or even accept questions from their students is more or less like Sensei Kreese from The Karate Kid and not somebody I would train under.
 

hoshin1600

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i will agree with your post but i have to mention that when your talking about martial arts you have to remember this is a global practice. what you describe may only apply to American schools taught by Americans. other cultures teach and learn by different means. what works and seems "best" in one culture could be the oposite in another culture. it is easy to assume that because you are not allowed to ask questions that is a sign of arrogance on the part of the teacher but if you are teaching from an intuitive method rather than the western logical/ informative method it is not arrogance. in an other culture the student who asks questions is seen as the one who is arrogant.
 

Blindside

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All that being said, this is one of the things that differentiates a good martial arts school from a bad martial arts school and this certainly includes dojos that teach unarmed martial arts. A sensei teaches the students but a sensei also learns from the students. As a matter of fact, you learn the most from teaching. There was this one sensei who said he was forever grateful to all his students, white belt through black belt, because they were also his teachers. A good sensei will know that they can always learn more and that includes learning from their students. A sensei who says students should just "shut up and train," and doesn't want to be asked questions is a poor teacher who probably won't produce students that learn much and furthermore such a sensei is very arrogant. Any sensei who thinks they know it all and they know the best method of teaching and they won't try to learn from or even accept questions from their students is more or less like Sensei Kreese from The Karate Kid and not somebody I would train under.

I wouldn't train under that guy either, but that doesn't mean he can't be a good instructor.
 

Buka

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There is a certain truth to "shut up and just train", but is usually in a context understood by all as strong work ethic - necessary in a Martial Artist at all times in dojo - and not as an insult or dismissal.

But I've yet to meet a Martial Arts instructor who doesn't like to take questions. Maybe I should get out more.
 

colemcm

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My Sifu was very traditional in his approach. I wouldn't say that he discouraged questions, but he definitely wasn't interested in being peppered with questions by someone who hadn't taken the time to try and figure it out for themselves. If you had a valid question, he would answer it, usually by showing you so you could practice it yourself.

The truth is that there are a lot of people out there that are just ask-holes. They ask a lot of questions, expect answers, but don't really listen to what you're telling them. While I am open to questions when I'm teaching, there does reach a point where people need to shut their mouths and engage the practice.
 

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There's lots of overt and subtle things that can make the difference. One of the big ones for me is tone.
 

Reedone816

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The grandmaster of my school always encourage his senior students to have student of their own, because he said that once you teach and handle the student question, you able to see something new from the material you know, that you haven't able to see when you yourself as a student.
That is why thorough each training, we always bombard question on our senior/teacher whenever we have something nagging in our head. But just be ready of the consequence, especially if you have been warned ;)
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk
 

Mark Lynn

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My Sifu was very traditional in his approach. I wouldn't say that he discouraged questions, but he definitely wasn't interested in being peppered with questions by someone who hadn't taken the time to try and figure it out for themselves. If you had a valid question, he would answer it, usually by showing you so you could practice it yourself.

As an instructor I totally agree with your comment here. I don't mind questions but I expect the person to work it out some before they start questioning "Why?" or telling me "But I would do this" etc. etc. so we get into a debate.

The truth is that there are a lot of people out there that are just ask-holes. They ask a lot of questions, expect answers, but don't really listen to what you're telling them. While I am open to questions when I'm teaching, there does reach a point where people need to shut their mouths and engage the practice.

Sometimes the questions come after correction and it can be very frustrating. Like I make a correction on a drill or technique and then the questions come, like "Why are we doing this?" or "What is the targets, what am I hitting?" or "Do you want this?" etc. etc. and then after the explanations to the question(s), the student goes on and does the same thing you corrected. Sometimes I do feel like this :banghead:

I totally agree though that I learn from my students and my best days of teaching are ones when I get to learn something from them. It can be as small as the young yellow belt girl coming up with a new description for a drill that I can use form that day forward for all of my new students thus allowing me to communicate better with them. Or it can be as complex as coming up with counters to techniques that my assistant instructors in arnis came up with as they were trying out new ideas for drills in my arnis classes. Simple or complex things that I would probably never have thought of start my brain working on new ideas and new methods of doing things.

One other thing on this subject: I believe good instructors know when to shut up and learn from one another as well. For the past 2 years off and on, I go to a another kali class after I get done teaching my Modern Arnis class. My wife believes I should already have "the glow" (The Last Dragon movie reference) and doesn't understand why after 30+ years I still go train in a different style with different people for the sheer fun and learning experience. I've arranged to take one of my younger arnis students to this class for extra training and I had to explain to him that he too needed to empty his cup (Enter the Dragon moment here), and shut up if he wanted to train with these guys. I told him I didn't want to hear him say "but we do it this way" or "Mr Lynn says...." none of that. He (we) was a guest and we are there to learn with the other students. I explained that what they did was similar and yet different than what I teach and that by attending this class it would help him (as it does me) to get a wider perspective on the martial arts.

All to often I see other instructors only stay within their schools, stay within their comfort zones and not reach out and learn with or from others and I believe this is a mistake.
 

jks9199

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There's a time and place for questions. At some points in your training, the correct answer is "shut up and train." At other points -- sure, explore ideas and concepts. But there's also a limit... Anybody who's been teaching for a while has dealt with what some folks call the "what if monkeys". They'll what if a technique, a form, anything to death. "But what if I come at you from this side? Or with this punch instead? Or set up a sniper 3/4 mile away, and have him shoot you as you open your door? Will this work then?" I've seen someone interrupt a grandmaster who was sharing some very good information and knowledge, that was rarely shared, and totally derail him with a rather inane question.

At times, the only proper question is "I'm sorry, sir/ma'am. Can you repeat the directions for me?" Until you know when that time is over -- that's probably what you should be asking.
 

donald1

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In my opinion there's a time and place for both asking questions and shut up and practice. If there's a question you don't know it is okay to ask. The instructor won't know if you don't ask, but sometimes it is good to ask questions later. Sometimes if you have a question you might figure the answer on your own and class is uninterrupted. However I still favor asking questions but it's better to limit them, be certain if it's an okay time to ask, and if possible ask before or after class
 
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PhotonGuy

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i will agree with your post but i have to mention that when your talking about martial arts you have to remember this is a global practice. what you describe may only apply to American schools taught by Americans. other cultures teach and learn by different means. what works and seems "best" in one culture could be the oposite in another culture. it is easy to assume that because you are not allowed to ask questions that is a sign of arrogance on the part of the teacher but if you are teaching from an intuitive method rather than the western logical/ informative method it is not arrogance. in an other culture the student who asks questions is seen as the one who is arrogant.

And how is asking questions a sign of arrogance? If anything, an arrogant person will not ask questions because he thinks he "knows it all."
 
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PhotonGuy

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There is a certain truth to "shut up and just train", but is usually in a context understood by all as strong work ethic - necessary in a Martial Artist at all times in dojo - and not as an insult or dismissal.

The "shut up and just train," philosophy should apply when you're doing drill work. When a sensei assigns certain drills the students should just shut up and do the drills, but there are certain times, for instance after class, when a student can and should ask questions if they need to.

But I've yet to meet a Martial Arts instructor who doesn't like to take questions. Maybe I should get out more.

You haven't met some of the other members on this board, I don't want to mention any names.
 

Cirdan

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The "shut up and just train," philosophy should apply when you're doing drill work. When a sensei assigns certain drills the students should just shut up and do the drills, but there are certain times, for instance after class, when a student can and should ask questions if they need to.



You haven't met some of the other members on this board, I don't want to mention any names.

Shut up and train does not mean you can`t ask questions. It means ask only the questions relevant to what you are doing, then shut up and move on. A lesson you obviously don`t get since you are forever busy whining about more experienced people trying to share a bit of wisdom with you.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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When I'm teaching, I generally call for questions at the end of class, so we can address any problems that students had drilling or sparring. I'm actually kind of disappointed on those days when no one has a question. I'm also available if one of the students has a problem with the current technique when we are doing drills.

jks9199 said:
Anybody who's been teaching for a while has dealt with what some folks call the "what if monkeys".

I wonder if this doesn't vary according to dojo culture, training methodology, etc. I used to see the what-if monkeys periodically during my days training in the Bujinkan, but I don't think I've encountered even one in BJJ. I suspect this might be because the consistent sparring in BJJ answers a lot of those questions:

"I wonder if I could escape this position by doing this ..."
***ARMBAR!*** ***TAP!***
"Okay, I guess not."

PhotonGuy said:
There was this one sensei who said he was forever grateful to all his students, white belt through black belt, because they were also his teachers.

I've learned plenty from students who were junior to me. I've also had guys who are senior to me say that they've learned a lot from me. If you are dedicated to learning rather than maintaining a hierarchy of authority, this sort of thing is inevitable.
 

WaterGal

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There's a time and place for questions. At some points in your training, the correct answer is "shut up and train." At other points -- sure, explore ideas and concepts. But there's also a limit... Anybody who's been teaching for a while has dealt with what some folks call the "what if monkeys". They'll what if a technique, a form, anything to death. "But what if I come at you from this side? Or with this punch instead? Or set up a sniper 3/4 mile away, and have him shoot you as you open your door? Will this work then?" I've seen someone interrupt a grandmaster who was sharing some very good information and knowledge, that was rarely shared, and totally derail him with a rather inane question.

At times, the only proper question is "I'm sorry, sir/ma'am. Can you repeat the directions for me?" Until you know when that time is over -- that's probably what you should be asking.


Haha, totally know what you're talking about. Or they want to know every tiny detail about something before they've even tried it one time, when their question would probably be answered by just doing it a few times.

Oh, and if you teach kids, good lord. They ask all sorts of questions that don't even have anything to do with martial arts. "Why do you have glasses?" "Why do people have different color skin?" "Do you have a pool?" "How do My Little Ponies fly?" - these are all questions I've been asked in class!
 

Tony Dismukes

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Haha, totally know what you're talking about. Or they want to know every tiny detail about something before they've even tried it one time, when their question would probably be answered by just doing it a few times.

Oh, and if you teach kids, good lord. They ask all sorts of questions that don't even have anything to do with martial arts. "Why do you have glasses?" "Why do people have different color skin?" "Do you have a pool?" "How do My Little Ponies fly?" - these are all questions I've been asked in class!

Hmmm - at the end of class I usually ask "Does anyone have any questions on anything we covered today." Maybe if I left out that qualification at the end I'd be getting more interesting questions. (Probably not. I teach adults and they apparently aren't as creative with their questioning.)
 

Balrog

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All that being said, this is one of the things that differentiates a good martial arts school from a bad martial arts school and this certainly includes dojos that teach unarmed martial arts. A sensei teaches the students but a sensei also learns from the students. As a matter of fact, you learn the most from teaching. There was this one sensei who said he was forever grateful to all his students, white belt through black belt, because they were also his teachers. A good sensei will know that they can always learn more and that includes learning from their students.
Can't argue this. I'm a Master and all that, but in reality all that means is that I am a very advanced student.

I may have told this story before, but back when I was a Red Belt, the founder of the ATA, Grand Master H. U. Lee, was a guest judge at one of our testings. Just before the testing, a White Belt student about 10 years old came up and asked him, "Sir, you outrank everybody. Who teaches you?" GM Lee said, "You do. Every time I see a new student beginning his journey to Black Belt, it teaches me all over again about dedication and perseverance." The kid's eyes got as big as saucers and he ran back down the hall yelling "MOM! MOM! GRAND MASTER SAYS I TEACH HIM!"

As he ran down the hall, I saw GM Lee, who normally had a very stoical expression, give a little smile. Kid did a great White Belt testing that day.
 

K-man

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There's a time and place for questions. At some points in your training, the correct answer is "shut up and train." At other points -- sure, explore ideas and concepts. But there's also a limit... Anybody who's been teaching for a while has dealt with what some folks call the "what if monkeys". They'll what if a technique, a form, anything to death. "But what if I come at you from this side? Or with this punch instead?
I have one older guy who regularly does the 'what if?' It always occurs when you are demonstrating a technique slowly which allows time for an improbable or impossible response to your move.

Him ... "But what if I slide my hand behind my head and push your arm from the other side?"

Me ... "Well, let's try it a bit faster."

Him (from the ground) ... "Hmm. That didn't work too well."

I love over that question. :)
 
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PhotonGuy

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When I'm teaching, I generally call for questions at the end of class, so we can address any problems that students had drilling or sparring. I'm actually kind of disappointed on those days when no one has a question. I'm also available if one of the students has a problem with the current technique when we are doing drills.
You're no doubt a very good teacher who has produced some excellent students.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Can't argue this. I'm a Master and all that, but in reality all that means is that I am a very advanced student.

I may have told this story before, but back when I was a Red Belt, the founder of the ATA, Grand Master H. U. Lee, was a guest judge at one of our testings. Just before the testing, a White Belt student about 10 years old came up and asked him, "Sir, you outrank everybody. Who teaches you?" GM Lee said, "You do. Every time I see a new student beginning his journey to Black Belt, it teaches me all over again about dedication and perseverance." The kid's eyes got as big as saucers and he ran back down the hall yelling "MOM! MOM! GRAND MASTER SAYS I TEACH HIM!"

As he ran down the hall, I saw GM Lee, who normally had a very stoical expression, give a little smile. Kid did a great White Belt testing that day.
Very good grandmaster. But, the journey doesn't end at black belt and a teacher does not stop learning from a student after they've made 1st dan. A teacher learns from the student as long as the student trains under the teacher.
 

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