Genbukan and Bujinkan

[Klondike93]

Originally in the Bujinkan, the rank certificates were given in all nine schools. Then it became "Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu". Now rank certificates are given in "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu".

Why the change and what's the difference between Ninpo and Budo?


:asian:

 

[Jay Bell]

According to Hatsumi sensei, he wanted to get away from the public image of the "ninja".

 

[heretic888]

Yup. It's hard to get people to take a self-transformative martial art seriously when they are thinking about wearing black pajamas while sneaking on golf courses at night.

As far as I can tell, there is still a HUGE 'ninja' or 'ninpo' basis to pretty much all the ryuha in Bujinkan (except for maybe Takagi Yoshin-ryu) but this is somewhat 'hidden' due to the negative Hollywood cliches concerning 'ninjitsu' (<< stupid spelling, hee hee hee).

An example of this still-present 'ninja influence' can be seen in Gyokko-ryu. Hakuunsai Tozawa, the founder and first soke of Gyoko-ryu (which I have heard described as a 'samurai jujutsu' school before), was also a jonin of Iga-ryu Ninpo (you dont get much more 'ninja' then that! ) and his name suggests connections to Hakuun-ryu ninjutsu. In addition, one of the 'nine rules' of the Gyokko-ryu involves what the meaning of the kanji character "NIN" (of ninja, ninjutsu, and ninpo) actually means. There's kuji, too.

I do not believe Gyokko-ryu is alone is this 'ninja culture' influence, but then again, whatta I know??

Ninpo ikkan.

 

[Jay Bell]

heretic,

That's not really correct. Before Hakuunsai Tozawa "founded" Gyokko ryu, there were four people before him in the lineage. Also...Iga ryu Ninjutsu didn't exist until around the 14th generation of Gyokko ryu. Momochi Sandayu was Soke of Gyokko ryu...and founded Iga ryu Ninjutsu.

Gyokko ryu *is* a Ninpo ryuha, for all intensive purposes. It's not strictly Ninpo, but the Ninja no Kissoku comes from this school.

The "kuji" that you brought up is the Gassho of Gyokko ryu. Ten ryaku uchu gassho, Futen gassho and Hanabonetsu Gassho...which you begin in depending on the level that is being studied.

Iga Hakuun ryu Ninpo has strong ties with Togakure ryu Ninpo. Going by people's names isn't a sure bet that they have something to do with a school.

Buyu Ikkan

 

[heretic888]

oh well, at least it's kinda correct!!!:rofl:

Before Hakuunsai Tozawa "founded" Gyokko ryu, there were four people before him in the lineage.

Hmm, really? Could you elaborate on this a bit?? I am very interested in the historical aspects of the ryuha....

Also...Iga ryu Ninjutsu didn't exist until around the 14th generation of Gyokko ryu. Momochi Sandayu was Soke of Gyokko ryu...and founded Iga ryu Ninjutsu.

Whoa, okay, now I'm a bit confoosed.

If I recall correctly, in "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions", Dr. Hatsumi described Gamon Doshi (a Chinese mystic and student of a warrior named Ikai) as the first 'jonin' or grandmaster' or whatever of the Iga-ryu, which was sometime around 1050 CE or so. Hakuunsai Tozawa was about fourth or fifth down, I think. Garyu Doshi, founder of Hakuun-ryu, and Daisuke Togakure, founder of Togakure-ryu, were also identified as Iga-ryu jonin by Hatsumi. Could you please clarify, por favor?

Gyokko ryu *is* a Ninpo ryuha, for all intensive purposes. It's not strictly Ninpo, but the Ninja no Kissoku comes from this school.

Umm....I think that's what I said.......

The "kuji" that you brought up is the Gassho of Gyokko ryu. Ten ryaku uchu gassho, Futen gassho and Hanabonetsu Gassho...which you begin in depending on the level that is being studied.

Yikes! someone just went over my head! whoosh!

Iga Hakuun ryu Ninpo has strong ties with Togakure ryu Ninpo.

Yes, if I recall correctly Kagakure Doshi (Daisuke Togakure's teacher) was a student of Hakuun-ryu.

Ninpo Ikkan.

 

[Jay Bell]

Here's the kazuu for Gyokko ryu -

Ikai
Hogenbo, Tesshun
Sasabe, Tendo
Hachiryu, Nyudo
1. Tozawa, Hakuunsai
2. Tozawa, Shozuke
3. Suzuki, Saburo Shigeyoshi
4. Suzuki, Gobei
5. Suzuki, Kojiro Mitsu
6. Tozawa, Nyudo Geneai
7. Yamon, Hyoun
8. Kato, Ryu Hakuun
9. Sakagami, Goro Katsushige
10. Sakagami, Taro Kunishige
11. Sakagami, Kotaro Masahide
12. Sougyoko, Kan Ritsushi
13. Toda, Sakyo Ishinsai
14. Momochi, Sandayu 1 (Found of Iga ryu)
15. Momochi, Sandayu 2
16. Momochi, Tanba Yasumitsu
17. Momochi, Taro Saemon
18. Toda, Seiryu Nobutsuna
19. Toda, Fudo Nobuchika
20. Toda, Kangoro Nobuyasu
21. Toda, Eisaburo Nobumasa
22. Toda, Shinbei Masachika
23. Toda, Shingoro Masayoshi
24. Toda, Daigoro Chikashige
25. Toda, Daisaburo Chikashige
26. Toda, Shinryuken Masamitsu
27. Takamatsu, Toshitsugu
28. Hatsumi, Masaaki

The term "Iga ryu" can be misleading. There are Iga ryuha...schools that were born and bred from the Iga province...and also there was a Iga ryu Ninjutsu school.

Umm....I think that's what I said.......

I was just restating it in agreement

 

[heretic888]

Here's the kazuu for Gyokko ryu

What the hell is a kazuu??

Izzat like soke or jonin or something??

Ikai
Hogenbo, Tesshun
Sasabe, Tendo
Hachiryu, Nyudo
1. Tozawa, Hakkunsai

Ah, yes..... Hatsumi also spoke of Hogenbo and Tendo in "Essence of Ninjutsu" (he was talking about an old tale Takamatsu had told him), and I am pretty certain he identified all those men as 'ninja'.

I once read on a Bujinkan site that the name 'Ikai' (or 'Ibou', its Chinese equivalent) implies a 'foreign person', and that Ikai was really Chan Busho (the supposed 'founder' [of sorts] of Koto-ryu teachings). Do you know anything about this??

I believe that I read in one of Mats Hjelm's articles that Hachiryu Nyudo was a student of Hakuun-ryu and passed the teachings on to Hakuunsai Tozawa. Then again, I'm not sure..... I got the general impression that 'Iga-ryu', Togakure-ryu, 'Gyokko-ryu', 'Koto-ryu', and Hakuun-ryu were all tightly involved and interrelated.

The term "Iga ryu" can be misleading. There are Iga ryuha...schools that were born and bred from the Iga province...and also there was a Iga ryu Ninjutsu school.

Oh, ok. So, tell me...... exactly which "Iga-ryu Ninpo" was Hatsumi talking about with Gamon Doshi as the first jonin or whatever and that also included Hakuunsai Tozawa, Daisuke Togakure, and Garyu Doshi as masters at one point???? I believe that on one of his articles, Mats Hjelm's stated that the "Iga-ryu" did not have soke (because it wasnt a martial lineage, per se) but jonin....

I was just restating it in agreement

yay for me!

Ninpo Ikkan.

 

[Jay Bell]

Founder Toda Sakyô Isshinsai received the tradition of Gyokko-Ryû ****ôjutsu from Sakagami Tarô Kunishige in the Tenmon period (1532-1550), and created Gyokko-Ryû Kosshijutsu and Kotô-Ryû Koppôjutsu, which he taught to Momochi Sandayû and were handed down within Iga-Ryû Ninjutsu and reached Toda Shinryûken at the end of the Tokugawa shôgunate (mid-19th century). Thus the foundation of the Togakure Ryû, which draws upon the traditions of Iga Ryû, is the Taijutsu of Gyokko-Ryû Kosshijutsu and Kotô-Ryû Koppôjutsu.

That was part of an article written by Manaka sensei on the history of Gyokko ryu.

I'll write more when I have some time.

Have a good one

 

[heretic888]

so, tell me..... which "Iga-ryu" was Hatsumi specifically referring to in Essence of Ninjutsu in which Ikai and Gamon Doshi were the 'founders' in your opinion??? Apparently, Hakuunsai Tozawa was the 'fourth grandmaster' of this Iga-ryu......

And what is a kazuu??

 

[Jay Bell]

which "Iga-ryu" was Hatsumi specifically referring to in Essence of Ninjutsu in which Ikai and Gamon Doshi were the 'founders' in your opinion???

No idea...doesn't make much sense to me

And what is a kazuu??

It's a list of the Soke of a lineage

The line above was edited..

It should be - Founder Toda Sakyô Isshinsai received the tradition of Gyokko-Ryû S.h.i.t.ôjutsu

 

[heretic888]

Thanks for the info, Jay.

I have a theory about the 'Iga-ryu' that Hatsumi-soke describes in Essence of Ninjutsu. This theory of mine has been influenced by what I have read in Essence of Ninjutsu and Mats Hjelm's very informative articles concerning ninpo history, as well as my own speculation. Here goes...

I believe that the Iga-ryu that Hatsumi-soke is talking about is not actually a specific ryuha. In one of his articles concerning Iga-ryu history, Mats Hjelm seems to identify the 'grandmasters' of this Iga-ryu NOT as soke (head of a ryuha) but as jonin (head of a ninpo organization or network). I believe this 'Iga-ryu' was more like a collective of specific martial arts lineages developed and used to protect the people of Iga. In this regard, the Bujinkan Dojo could be viewed as a modern-day incarnation of this 'Iga-ryu'.

Thus, this 'Iga-ryu', this broad collective of martial arts within Iga encompassed a large diversity of ryuha at different points in time: Koto-ryu, Gyokko-ryu, Kumogakure-ryu, Togakure-ryu, Gikan-ryu Gyokushin-ryu, Hakuun-ryu, and Kukishin-ryu all being notable examples. All of the ryuha of the Bujinkan seem to be Iga-ryu schools, although I am not so sure about Shinden Fudo-ryu (does this school have connections to the Fudo-ryu school of ninjutsu?) or the Takagi Yoshin-ryu. Almost all these schools can be traced back to having been developed by a relatively small group of men (Ikai, Gamon Doshi, Garyu Doshi, Kagakure Doshi, Hakuunsai Tozawa, Iga Heinabe Yasukiyo, etc etc.), and thus have a common origin and culture.

There is an interesting point about the Kumogakure-ryu that Mr. Hjelms makes: "[...] IGA Heinabe Yasukio seem to be the basis of the knowledge that IGA Heinai Zaemon Nojo Ieanaga, his descendant in the 12th generation, used when he founded a school, also named IGA RYU, but which later had its name changed to Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo [...] Another interesting point worth a note is that Iga Ryu and Kumogakure Ryu who is listed among the single Ryu, is in principle the same Ryu. Since Iga Ryu changed its name to Kumogakure Ryu."

So, it seems there WAS a specific Iga-ryu martial art, but that this had its name changed and is now the modern-day Kumogakure-ryu.

In other words, there was the Iga-ryu as a unifying network of ninpo traditions, of which Gamon Doshi was the first jonin, and there was the Iga-ryu as a specific martial arts school, which later had its name changed to Kumogakure-ryu. And, in a certain sense, any martial art ryuha from Iga could always just call itself an 'Iga-ryu'. So, it's very tricky when trying to define what one means by THE 'Iga-ryu'. Regardless, I think the 'broad collective of ninja ryuha Iga-ryu' is the Iga-ryu Hatsumi is talkin about in Essence of Ninjutsu.

What do you think of my theory??

 

[Jay Bell]

Another interesting point worth a note is that Iga Ryu and Kumogakure Ryu who is listed among the single Ryu, is in principle the same Ryu. Since Iga Ryu changed its name to Kumogakure Ryu

I've never found anything that backed that information, though I have read it on Matts' site before.

More correctly, all of the schools you listed (including Shinden Fudo ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu) stem from the Amatsu Tatara.

Shinden Fudo ryu has no ties with Fudo ryu Ninpo.

Within the Bujinkan today, all of the information that we study has Ninpo in it. With the methods and approach to the material, it's all Ninpo.

 

[heretic888]

More correctly, all of the schools you listed (including Shinden Fudo ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu) stem from the Amatsu Tatara.

True, true, but I think what I said about Iga-ryu still applies. And, I think that was what Hatsumi-soke was referencing in Essence of Ninjutsu.

Does the Amatsu Tatara have any particular links or signifcance to the ninpo traditions of Iga??? I have heard stories and theories linking 'ninpo' to VERY ancient times (which are briefly touched upon in Essence of Ninjutsu), as far back as 660 BCE, but I don't know if they have any validity to them....

Within the Bujinkan today, all of the information that we study has Ninpo in it. With the methods and approach to the material, it's all Ninpo.

Bujinkan NINPO, eh? Interesting........... :asian:

Ninpo ikkan.

 

[Jay Bell]

As far as I'm aware, all traditions of Iga have ties to the Amatsu Tatara.

Can a Genbukan chap validate this?

 

[heretic888]

i see, i see....... but, tell me: what makes the Amatsu Tatara so special to Iga-ryu Ninpo, eh??? I was under the impression that the Amatsu Tatara covered martial arts in general (among other things), so why would it be of particular or special importance to the Iga ninja martial culture???

i'm not trying to sound demeaning or insulting here, but wouldn't the Amatsu Tatara have as much 'ties' to Iga-ryu ninpo as any other Japanese martial art, or is there something different that i'm missing here??

regardless, thanks for the info.

 

[Makoto-Dojo]

Originally posted by heretic888

i see, i see....... but, tell me: what makes the Amatsu Tatara so special to Iga-ryu Ninpo, eh??? I was under the impression that the Amatsu Tatara covered martial arts in general (among other things), so why would it be of particular or special importance to the Iga ninja martial culture???

i'm not trying to sound demeaning or insulting here, but wouldn't the Amatsu Tatara have as much 'ties' to Iga-ryu ninpo as any other Japanese martial art, or is there something different that i'm missing here??

regardless, thanks for the info.

These questions would best be answered by simply getting a personal teacher in a DIRECT Linegae of Amatsu Tatara Bumon and Shumon as well as Iga derived Ninpo traditions.

The answers are there of course and it's more interesting than you may imagine. However, to be blunt, your not going to get anything of much value by asking questions to an internet forum.

I understand your just making conversation. But I ask you to understand that what's in "the family" stays in the "family" those who would proclaim knowledge of such matters are exactly the people who know nothing on the subject.

This is all kuden which is based on trust and relationship and TIME. I am just being honest with you as to how the situation works.

So for the sake of casual conversation, yes Amatsu Tatara is VERY connected to Togakure Ryu for an example. As to why and how, well find a connected teacher Tanemura Sensei is the current Grand Master of Amatsu Tatara Bumon and Shumon.

Regards,

 

[heretic888]

The answers are there of course and it's more interesting than you may imagine.

Yes, well I suspected as such...... very little in life is black and white.

I understand your just making conversation. But I ask you to understand that what's in "the family" stays in the "family" those who would proclaim knowledge of such matters are exactly the people who know nothing on the subject.

This is all kuden which is based on trust and relationship and TIME. I am just being honest with you as to how the situation works.

Yes, I understand all that. Honesty is the best policy, they say.

But, I do not wish for you to publicize any kind of great 'ninja secrets' or whatnot, just some basic historical information. I actually know very little about the Amatsu Tatara, so ANY info (especially as it applies to ninpo) would be much appreciated.

All I can say is: post what information (if any) you feel is appropriate for the forum. Thanks.

 

[Makoto-Dojo]

Originally posted by heretic888

Yes, well I suspected as such...... very little in life is black and white.



Yes, I understand all that. Honesty is the best policy, they say.

But, I do not wish for you to publicize any kind of great 'ninja secrets' or whatnot, just some basic historical information. I actually know very little about the Amatsu Tatara, so ANY info (especially as it applies to ninpo) would be much appreciated.

All I can say is: post what information (if any) you feel is appropriate for the forum. Thanks.

Hi,

the problem I personally have is this. I don't think any of it belongs on any forum.... Lets say this. With out Amatsu Tatara I don't feel there would be such an animal as Togakure ryu today.

I am not trying to make a big deal of all this. Look it's like this. There are many Kuden in Genbukan. It takes years of building trust with Tanemura Sensei to get these kuden. Another route is to EARN the trust of a teacher who may give different kuden.

These oral teachings are not meant to be spread out on forums to people who just ask. You see? Kuden is VERY important in Genbukan Ninpo. We are all very aware of what information is out and about to the public. but there is so much more that is secret, word of mouth between two people.

This is how Ninpo has always been. So many people are used to clicking a button and getting what they want> Even in Bujinkan VERY little of ninpo is known to the public. Many times people would put information on sites etc.. and most times this information is just wrong.

The stuff you see in books and videos and on internet is really BASIC stuff, so minor in the big picture that it matters little that it's out there. Ninpo is a closed door system. As far as Amatsu Tatara the grandmaster of it Tanemura Sensei has put out some information on it. What he put out, is what he wants out. What is not out, is what he wants to be kept behind closed doors.

If you are Bujinkan, then there is little hope of learning inside teachings of Genbukan. this of course goes without saying.

Regards,

 

[heretic888]

I actually just found a very interesting site at www.amatsu.com

It gives a very nice generic overview of the history of the Amatsu Tatara under the geneology section. I get the general impression that the Ninja clans are the descendents and/or inheritors of the Buddhist Malays...... very interesting. I wonder what relationship the Hi Chi Bu Ku Goshin Jutsu ryu has to the other ryu of the Bujinkan......

 

[Makoto-Dojo]

Originally posted by heretic888

I actually just found a very interesting site at www.amatsu.com

It gives a very nice generic overview of the history of the Amatsu Tatara under the geneology section. I get the general impression that the Ninja clans are the descendents and/or inheritors of the Buddhist Malays...... very interesting. I wonder what relationship the Hi Chi Bu Ku Goshin Jutsu ryu has to the other ryu of the Bujinkan......

HI,

even in the Bujinkan these guys are not highly thought of Ask around...

if you really are interested in Amatsu Tatara get Amamtsu tatara Magazine from Tanemura Sensei. What better source than the 58th grandmaster of the tradition. This healing aspect of Amatsu Tatara is a SMALL part of the teachings

The scrolls are 36 in total:
History 3 scrolls
Inspiration system 2
Kuji Kiri Prayer Methods 3
Kuji Kiri and spiritual power3
Fortune telling2
God's Mirror System4
Astrology 4
Castle Construction1

And more Including sword spear taijutsu etc..

Amatsu tatara magazine contains in it more information on Amatsu Tatara than has EVER been available before.

Regards,