full contact sparring?

[Bill Mattocks]

Yes, Olympic sparring is full power, and a knockout wins. And, those guys kick like a mule.

I stand corrected - it is 'full contact', but they opponents do wear protective gear; same stuff I wear. That still doesn't mean full power. I think maybe there's some confusion there, and I'm sorry if I contributed to that. I don't have a problem with full contact; full power implies hitting with all my power, and that, uh, no. For reasons described.

 

[bugatabugata]

In our regular practices, we do "no contact" sparring. In the Wednesday and Friday "special" practices (and in a case of "be careful what you wish for" for anyone that remembers my earlier post on sparring), it's full protective gear, full contact (head included), but no kicks to the face/groin for, well, obvious reasons. I'm pretty confident that it's not "full power" for the pro guys, otherwise someone would likely have to scrape me off the wall at the end of every class.

But that's not really the point of sparring, is it? Isn't it supposed to be more about outmaneuvering/outlasting your opponent than about causing them pain?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I stand corrected - it is 'full contact', but they opponents do wear protective gear; same stuff I wear. That still doesn't mean full power. I think maybe there's some confusion there, and I'm sorry if I contributed to that. I don't have a problem with full contact; full power implies hitting with all my power, and that, uh, no. For reasons described.

This does make for an interesting topic, as Im unsure of exactly where I stand on this. Are you implying, that in an olympic bout when one guy smashes the other accross the hogu at full speed and just drops his opponent, that he has not hit with his full power? Or when, in an olympic bout, someone gets ko'd and is off with the fairies for a while, that he has not been hit with full power? Im not saying you're wrong, as Im undecided myself, but Ive seen these guys train and if its not full power, then I can assure you they are not holding much back. I agree that if one of them just stood there with his arms in the air and was kicked full power he would have all his ribs broken into little pieces, but these guys have amazing reflexes and I would say its extremely rare that anyone could get a nice clean shot on them. Because it doesnt look to me that these guys are holding much back, and this isnt a great vid to demonstrate, just the first I found -

 

[leadleg]

People do get broken ribs if caught flat footed, broken arms while trying to block,broken noses from punches gone awry, broken fingers etc.... years ago a competitor died at the US Open, head trauma that had some medical history associated with it. Full Contact- Full Power.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

People do get broken ribs if caught flat footed, broken arms while trying to block,broken noses from punches gone awry, broken fingers etc.... years ago a competitor died at the US Open, head trauma that had some medical history associated with it. Full Contact- Full Power.

Thats what Im trying to figure out. Isnt full contact and full power the same thing?

 

[WC_lun]

I'm not seeing the distinction Bill.

 

[StudentCarl]

I think that "hard sparring" is a great, but I personally have reservations about hitting as hard as you can in sparring. I foresee a great deal of liability with that, particularly with discrepancies between skill and strength in students at a smaller dojang.

We're careful about controlling power when there's a difference in strength and skill. The junior, though, has a green light.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not seeing the distinction Bill.

I am taking full contact to mean hits anywhere are legal. Full power means hit them anywhere as hard as you can hit them. At least, that's how I'm seeing it. Also, apparently Olympic sparring is still done with padding; helmets and gloves and such. I kind of had this mental image of 'full power' meaning bare-knuckle brawling. Which I realize was done in the early days of karate in the US, but not so much now. And I certainly would not be participating in it if it was. Full respect for those who can or want to do it, but not for me; I have to go to work in the morning.

 

[StudentCarl]

Yeah, no. Jaws break the same way if you're trained or not. There's no makiwara board for noses. And I realize nobody sits still and waits to be hit. That doesn't mean they won't be hit, even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then. Full power means jaws and noses get broken, testicles get driven up into the tonsils. If you guys do that, my hat is off to you; but no way would I do that. Hey, to each their own. I still have a little trouble believing you're putting people in the hospital on a daily basis, and I fully believe that's what 'full power' results in (especially mine). I may not be good and I may not be fast, but I hit a ton. I only need one lucky punch and it's liquid nose. That really OK for a daily thing in the dojo?

What you write helps explain why the rules have evolved as they have: nothing below the belt and no hand techniques to the face. Closed mouths help protect jaws, but yes, noses get broken sometimes. The groin shots are accidents, but they do happen sometimes. Trips to the hospital are very rare, but bruises are not. Even knockouts are pretty uncommon, but people do get their wind knocked out, and some of us have had ribs cracked. There are techniques you can use to take less impact...those aren't things you learn by going light.

I realize it's not for everyone. Sparring in regular classes is lighter, as those folks don't spar often and are likely to hurt themselves as each other. But for those who compete in WTF type tournaments, you train the way you fight. By the way, perhaps it's also clear why those of us who do this call it fighting. Yes, it's not a streetfight with no rules, but you are in a fight and will get hurt if you don't defend yourself.

 

[StudentCarl]

That is precisely how we practice as well, problem is, no one WANTS to be put in the hospital, so no one spars 100% power. There are people who do, from time to time, and then they get put up against a well trained black belt that can dish out the same power, which abruptly puts a stop to it. Again, I'm all for hard and heavy sparring, we just don't spar 100% power in our dojang.

That's how we handle sparring in class too. My comments related to those who train for and spar in tournaments. We train separately, and it's at that training that we go 'hard and heavy'.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What you write helps explain why the rules have evolved as they have: nothing below the belt and no hand techniques to the face. Closed mouths help protect jaws, but yes, noses get broken sometimes. The groin shots are accidents, but they do happen sometimes. Trips to the hospital are very rare, but bruises are not. Even knockouts are pretty uncommon, but people do get their wind knocked out, and some of us have had ribs cracked. There are techniques you can use to take less impact...those aren't things you learn by going light.

I realize it's not for everyone. Sparring in regular classes is lighter, as those folks don't spar often and are likely to hurt themselves as each other. But for those who compete in WTF type tournaments, you train the way you fight. By the way, perhaps it's also clear why those of us who do this call it fighting. Yes, it's not a streetfight with no rules, but you are in a fight and will get hurt if you don't defend yourself.

I think it's clear we just don't use the same words. Yes, I get bruises. Yes, we've had a few people break ribs in the dojo, and a few broken toes. People have been knocked down. I got a bo through my protective goggles, shattering the lens. One of our sensei failed to block a bo and got several stitches in his head. We do all that stuff and those things do happen.

But we don't call it 'full contact' or 'full power'. We're still expected to use control when we hit and kick each other. Like I said, if we can break ribs hitting hard but using control, 'full power' means even worse damage.

I agree we do what you say you do. I don't agree it's full power or anywhere even close to that. I've been sat down by a side kick to the solar plexus that knocked me back several feet and took my wind away - but it wasn't even close to a full power kick. I hate to think what a full power kick in the same spot would have done to me.

I guess that's why I'm confused. We do what you say you do, but no, it's not full power.

 

[andyjeffries]

I guess that's why I'm confused. We do what you say you do, but no, it's not full power.

The difference is you're "expected to use control", we're expected to put everything in to it and explicitly not control/reduce the amount of power put in.

This is similar to ITF guys that say "we kick hard in competition too, we get people knocked out etc" - the difference is for them it's a deduction factor, for us it's a point/win.

 

[StudentCarl]

I am taking full contact to mean hits anywhere are legal. Full power means hit them anywhere as hard as you can hit them. At least, that's how I'm seeing it. Also, apparently Olympic sparring is still done with padding; helmets and gloves and such. I kind of had this mental image of 'full power' meaning bare-knuckle brawling. Which I realize was done in the early days of karate in the US, but not so much now. And I certainly would not be participating in it if it was. Full respect for those who can or want to do it, but not for me; I have to go to work in the morning.

Thanks for clarifying Bill. One of the challenges on a forum like this is that it's easy to assume we're talking about the same thing when we're not. We wear helmets and hogus, gloves, forearm and shin pads, foot pads, cups and mouthguards. People are partnered by weight and experience level. Colored belts are only allowed light head contact, and young colored belts have no head contact. Black belts are allowed full power, but we often train with light head contact. That said, it's important to train how you fight so you're not nervous in the ring. It's important to learn how to protect your head both with movement and blocking, and it's not the same when people go light because their technique is slower and different.

I have to go to work in the morning too, and I turn 50 this year. Like all that we train, building ability in sparring happens over time. I still take more hard shots than I should, but improve with practice. There's no doubt that it's hard on the body; there aren't as many folks sparring at tournaments in my age group as the younger ones. If I was more senior it might be different, but I enjoy it and have loads to learn.

The other thing that's worth saying is that the black belt ring is different from the colored belts'. Because of the risks, black belts fight more cautiously; opponents usually are pretty skilled and doing something stupid will get you hit hard. But everyone I know makes it to work on Monday.

 

[StudentCarl]

I don't agree it's full power or anywhere even close to that. I've been sat down by a side kick to the solar plexus that knocked me back several feet and took my wind away - but it wasn't even close to a full power kick. I hate to think what a full power kick in the same spot would have done to me.

I guess that's why I'm confused. We do what you say you do, but no, it's not full power.

I see what you're saying but I read it differently. Was the person who knocked you back purposely using less than full power? I doubt it if you were sparring. The power that we can generate in a board break, from a great stance with great focus and carefully controlled range is what I think you mean as full power. Is that what you mean?

The reality of sparring is trying to maintain good stance and technique while moving and facing an opponent doing the same. It's harder to generate power when you're continuously adjusting and anticipating. What I mean as full power when sparring is that you are not holding back--you're trying to hit as hard as you can both to score, dominate, and break the focus of your opponent...so you can control the match and win. If I can crank you with a hard back kick, it may mess with your head and give me more openings or put you in retreat. That's the game of sport Taekwondo as a black belt.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

We're careful about controlling power when there's a difference in strength and skill. The junior, though, has a green light.

Total agreement with this one. It is the responsibility of the junior rank to "bring it."

 

[SahBumNimRush]

This has been a very informative thread of discussion, and I appreciate Ralph, Bill, Carl and Andy weighing in on it. From my limited experience in Olympic style sparring, the focus appears to be on speed, it does not matter so much on technique. If I hit you as hard as I can without proper hip rotation, body mechanics it won't be as hard as a 70% maximum power technically good kick, IMHO.

For example, look at the lack of waist/hip rotation and kinetic linking in this series of kicks:

U.S. Olympic Trials:

@2:36, the kick was certainly not 100%
@3:03, ditto
@3:29, ditto
and the whole hour and a half of footage, contains much of the same.

I'm not putting any of this down, please do not take it that way. But from my perspective both sides are correct in their positions on full contact. Because you are trying to make contact within a scoring zone as many times as you can during the round, I think that the rules make it easier for less "quality" of technique, er go, less power, even if you are hitting as hard as you can.

Just my observation.

I've never been to an ITF competition, so I cannot speak to that end. However, from my experience in the "traditional" tournament circuits, K.O.'s are not disqualification, they are a win. Blood drawn is typically a D.Q. though, so it discourages uncontrolled and blind techniques (unless it is the BB divisions).

Really, I wouldn't want to get hit by an Olympian with a back kick or back wheel kick, but I'm honestly not that concerned about their round kicks. Not that they couldn't hurt you, but we spar hard enough in our dojang that I'm confident I can take one through a hogu. Depending on how you look at it, fortunately or unfortunately, the ruleset discourages the use of side kicks, which can potentially deliver much more power than a round kick. I say the ruleset discourages it, because it is difficult to score with it and not get hit yourself with a technically "inferior" round kick. Again, this isn't putting down the athletes, they have to adapt the technique to suit the rules.

I would like to emphasize that this is only my observation and limited experience sparring in this ruleset. I've seen Olympians fight in traditional tournaments and excel with good technique and hit with devastating power, and I know they weren't going full power. Greg and Doug Baker come to mind, both great fighters back in the day.

 

[WC_lun]

I don't train for sports. Kudos to those that do. So when we go hard, everything is a target. Thta doesn't mean common sense isn't used and if someone if very vulnerable you don't have to finish them. Our view of fighting is that on the first exchange you get your opponent into a recovery mode. Miss it and you have to go through another exchange to do it. When we are testing ourselves, to know if we have trained something properly into our bodies, we go full out. It is more dangerous and to be honest, there is some fear there. That is the point though. To do what we do when frightened and being attacked by someone who really wants to hit you.

Martial arts isn't a non-contact activity. To learn to use it in a bad situation, or sporting situation, you must occasionally train in an atmosphere that reflects the end goal of your training. If that goal is full contact, then you must accasionally train at that power level. You do have to be smart about it, because as Bill says, we all got lives outside of the kwoon that we can't partici[ate in if we are injured.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I see what you're saying but I read it differently. Was the person who knocked you back purposely using less than full power? I doubt it if you were sparring. The power that we can generate in a board break, from a great stance with great focus and carefully controlled range is what I think you mean as full power. Is that what you mean?

The student who kicked me and knocked me back and onto my keister was not kicking me as hard as he could have; he has great power and I have little doubt that if he did it 'for real', my entrails would be my extrails.

I can't relate as much to your board-breaking example; we don't break boards. We do break concrete, but we do 'soft breaks' that require focus, body mechanics, and (for those who believe in it) ki flow. Power will actually disrupt the process.

But as an example, the person who managed to break another student's ribs with a punch; it was accidental of course. A hard blow, but hardly the hardest he could hit. If he went around applying that kind of power all the time in the dojo, he'd break ribs all the time as well. He doesn't, because he (generally) has excellent control. Is that 'full power'? If so, I guess we just mean different things by 'full power'. To me, it means 'as hard as you can', not 'hard but with control'.

No offense intended.

 

[StudentCarl]

No offense taken. Thanks for the reply.