From the past-Black Flag wing chun.

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Breva

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I see many old posts about this. Is it still a relevant topic?
Hard to determine what the concensus was.
TYIA.
 

Eric_H

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I see many old posts about this. Is it still a relevant topic?
Hard to determine what the concensus was.
TYIA.

Turned out to be 18 Lohan + Yip Man Wing Chun instead of a rare variant of Wing Chun. Some people found benefit in its methods regardless of source. After the main guy pushing it got publicly named+shamed by his old teacher and split with the VTM, nobody really has mentioned it.
 
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Breva

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Turned out to be 18 Lohan + Yip Man Wing Chun instead of a rare variant of Wing Chun. Some people found benefit in its methods regardless of source. After the main guy pushing it got publicly named+shamed by his old teacher and split with the VTM, nobody really has mentioned it.
I have heard it mentioned in class, did more research then got confused with the pros and cons. So thank you.
 

ShortBridge

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Yeah, answered pretty cleanly above.

Training is good and sometimes people bring new perspectives and that can make traditionalists uncomfortable. Whether or not Black Flag Wing Chun was actually good training or not, I couldn't say, but the providence was misrepresented according to the global consensus.

That said, not all Wing Chun is Yip Man Wing Chun and if you look hard enough there are still some less mainstream strains, but that doesn't always mean better.
 

geezer

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Whether or not Black Flag Wing Chun was actually good training or not, I couldn't say, but the providence was misrepresented according to the global consensus.
Provenance. It's source, or where it comes from. Various possibilities have been suggested:

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geezer

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....if you look hard enough there are still some less mainstream strains, but that doesn't always mean better.
Some people are simply drawn to the esoteric. "The less known, the better."

Personally, I agree with you. Sometimes the better known branches are well known because they were practical and functional.
Unfortunately, that quality may be diminishing over time.
 

ShortBridge

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Some people are simply drawn to the esoteric. "The less known, the better."

Personally, I agree with you. Sometimes the better known branches are well known because they were practical and functional.
Unfortunately, that quality may be diminishing over time.

Yeah, 100%. But, also sometimes the good stuff is hiding in plain sight. Not everyone wants a mcdojo.
In my experience, you have to go and meet people, be open, but humble and maybe they'll share with you. Then decide if there is something there that can help you. Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't.
 
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ShortBridge

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I don't know about "usually", but sure. In the US, anyone can hang out a shingle and claim to have something to teach. If people chose to be their students then they are a teacher. Whether they do that in a basement by word of mouth or have a glossy storefront and offer GroupOn is not an indication of the quality of what they are teaching.
 

Glaeken

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Can you expand on this thought?
Backyards, garages, and basements have a long history of producing terrible martial artists. Typically, those are the hobbyists.

YouTube has all the proof you need. This website has plenty of examples. Some of the worst stuff I've ever seen.
 

gyoja

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Backyards, garages, and basements have a long history of producing terrible martial artists. Typically, those are the hobbyists.

YouTube has all the proof you need. This website has plenty of examples. Some of the worst stuff I've ever seen.
I can see this if they are not associated with a school and maybe just learned a little and are passing themselves off as experts. However, there are quite a few advantages for smaller schools.
 

Glaeken

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I can see this if they are not associated with a school and maybe just learned a little and are passing themselves off as experts. However, there are quite a few advantages for smaller schools.
A school can operate out of a church basement, closet, attic, beach. Anywhere. So any shingle.

The good to bad ratio still heavily favors the bad stuff.

Martial arts instruction is heavily infested by this behind the door mentality.

And most people can't tell the difference.
 

gyoja

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A school can operate out of a church basement, closet, attic, beach. Anywhere. So any shingle.

The good to bad ratio still heavily favors the bad stuff.

Martial arts instruction is heavily infested by this behind the door mentality.

And most people can't tell the difference.
I guess that I just havent run across these guys. I have found some really good small schools though.
 

Callen

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The good to bad ratio still heavily favors the bad stuff.
There will always be opinions about what is and what isn't good Wing Chun. However, the size and building type of the school/kwoon has little to do with the quality of instruction. Quality Wing Chun is the result of proper training, and that can take place in any sized outlet. I know several well-known teachers that produce high quality practitioners from their backyards and mo kwoons.
 

Glaeken

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There will always be opinions about what is and what isn't good Wing Chun. However, the size and building type of the school/kwoon has little to do with the quality of instruction. Quality Wing Chun is the result of proper training, and that can take place in any sized outlet. I know several well-known teachers that produce high quality practitioners from their backyards and mo kwoons.
"High quality" is subjective. Alot of people consider very bad stuff good, just because it is taught in secret in someone's special clubhouse.

It's not that good teachers can't be found in the oddest places, but that there is an overwhelming abundance of charlatans, fakes, and couch potatoes who also claim to be basement masters.

These people drown out legitimate teachers, because to the average person they are indistinguishable. Wing Chun is just one art with this problem, it really applies to them all.
 

Callen

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"High quality" is subjective. Alot of people consider very bad stuff good, just because it is taught in secret in someone's special clubhouse.

It's not that good teachers can't be found in the oddest places, but that there is an overwhelming abundance of charlatans, fakes, and couch potatoes who also claim to be basement masters.

These people drown out legitimate teachers, because to the average person they are indistinguishable. Wing Chun is just one art with this problem, it really applies to them all.
By high quality I simply mean established curriculum, tested, fight capable, verified lineage approved, etc... Gary Lam, Mark Wong, Dwight Hennings, Nino Bernardo... immediately come to mind. I was just trying to point out that your opinion that, "backyards, garages, and basements have a long history of producing terrible martial artists", is an extreme generalization. In terms of traditional gong fu, it is well-known that some of the most respected VT has been taught from the mo kwoon ( home school ). Teaching from backyards, garages, and basements is actually quite common through-out all of Chinese martial arts history. Leung Jan, Yip Man, Yuen Kay San, Bruce Lee, even Wong Fei Hung. From Mantis to Hung Ga and Ving Tsun, the home school has always been deeply rooted in gong fu culture.

I don't disagree that charlatans, fakes, and couch potatoes are an issue; but they can be found everywhere, not just in backyards, garages, and basements. From the perspective of the Wing Chun community, I would even say that these people are becoming far more prevalent online than in actual brick and mortar establishments. I also agree that they can drown out legitimate teachers, but the location from where they teach is not the issue, it's what they're teaching that has the most negative impact.

IMO, the greater issue is that charlatans, fakes, and couch potatoes attempt to teach others with a lack of skill and a poor/incomplete understanding of the system. And from what we are seeing, this can be done from anywhere.
 

Glaeken

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I was just trying to point out that your opinion that, "backyards, garages, and basements have a long history of producing terrible martial artists", is an extreme generalization.
He said "some of the best stuff". I said "also some of the worst, usually".

It's not an extreme generalization, its the status quo.

If the exception was the rule, the world would be full of backyard and basement Wing Chun masters, but it's not.

Yoga, I can find 1,000 good teachers tomorrow. "Black Flag" Wing Chun, might as well play Powerball.
 

HighKick

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Backyards, garages, and basements have a long history of producing terrible martial artists. Typically, those are the hobbyists.

YouTube has all the proof you need. This website has plenty of examples. Some of the worst stuff I've ever seen.
Yes, but the inverse is often true. Just because a school isn't a commercial operation does Not mean it is bad.
 
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