Freedom of Speech...after finger-painting.

[Sapper6]

this is great stuff here. "ok johnny, stop stabbing pencils into sallie's back." "**** off teach!" "ok johnny only four more left for the day."

Brit Kids OK to Use F-Word in Class -- But Only Five Times a Day...

it's a shame we left that country when we did. looks like it's turning out to be a GREAT place afterall.

 

[sgtmac_46]

this is great stuff here. "ok johnny, stop stabbing pencils into sallie's back." "**** off teach!" "ok johnny only four more left for the day."

Brit Kids OK to Use F-Word in Class -- But Only Five Times a Day...

it's a shame we left that country when we did. looks like it's turning out to be a GREAT place afterall.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I don't even know what to say to that. I'm fully confident some moron will come along shortly to defend this as a good idea.

 

[Bammx2]

aw hell.

You guys back home have NO idea how far out of control these kids are here!
I have seen with my own eyes,a teenager yell at a cop,tell HIM to get his F'n hands off him and litterally put the cop in HIS place.
You have these bleeding heart freaks over here who will tell what you cannot do with your own children,but the same morons are the first to come after you when your kids get into trouble.But you are not allowed to discipline them in any way,shape or form.
The same lame arguement is "the kids don't have enough to do...they are just bored" (think whiny,geeky voice)
Like Hell!
They can run the streets when they want,where they want and how they want and there is nothing you can do.THEY think YOU have to respect thier little punk *** first and then they might THINK about respecting you.
I saw a documentary last week about teenagers in jail for violent assualts.
One heathen was in for B&E and while he was in the home,he was caught by the owner.
So the little **** stabbed the owner.
Ya know why? And I quote word for word....
"if he wasn't home,he wouldn't have gotten stabbed.So it wasn't my fault"..all the while,he was laughing about this.
As a matter of fact,I refuse to teach a kids class due to the attitudes AND the parents getting bent when you "speak" to thier kids for screwing up.

Sorry,slight soapbox issue..

 

[Sapper6]

sounds like they need a couple years in the school system of the south :idunno: .

 

[sgtmac_46]

What those teenagers need is someone to grab them by the throat and choke them unconcious for talking that way. Had I talked to my father in that language (or worse, my mother) i'd have found myself laying in the floor with a swollen face wondering how I got there. How do I know that? Trust me, I know.

My parents had love for me when I needed it, food for me when I needed,.... and discipline for me when I needed it, all in the appropriate amounts.

It's all about respect, folks, it isn't about self-esteem. And the core to respect is a small healthy dose of fear.

"This is exactly what I'm talking about, ever since this boy was sucking on his mama's tit he has been given everything but discipline. Now his idea of being a man is coming around here, harassing the good natured folks too polite to put a stop to it." “Who am I? I’m Hub McCann. I’ve fought in two World Wars and countless smaller ones on three continents. I led thousands of men into battle with everything from horses and swords to artillery and tanks. I’ve seen the headwaters of the Nile, and tribes of natives no white man had ever seen before. I’ve won and lost a dozen fortunes, killed many men and loved only one woman with a passion a flea like you could never begin to understand. That’s who I am. Now, go home, boy! “

Robert Duvall-"Second Hand Lions"

 

[arnisador]

I have one suggestion to fix this problem:

Nuns with rulers.

 

[arnisador]

Had I talked to my father in that language (or worse, my mother) i'd have found myself laying in the floor with a swollen face wondering how I got there. How do I know that? Trust me, I know.

My parents had love for me when I needed it, food for me when I needed,.... and discipline for me when I needed it, all in the appropriate amounts.

And look how well-adjusted you tuned out? Is that the argument?

I hope you were exaggerating...but I wouldn't recommend beating a child unconscious and bruised as a standard method of discipline. That shows a lack of control and maturity on the parents' part, to say the very least.

 

[sgtmac_46]

And look how well-adjusted you tuned out? Is that the argument?

I hope you were exaggerating...but I wouldn't recommend beating a child unconscious and bruised as a standard method of discipline. That shows a lack of control and maturity on the parents' part, to say the very least.

If a 17 year male yells obscenities in his mothers face or engages in physical violence against her or another family member, I have no problem with his father applying severe physical consequences, if that answers your question. If my son ever did the same with his mother, he would never in his life forget what would happen next. The idea that those consequences are off the table have caused a lot of problems in our society.

"Standard method of discipline"? No, but then again, a 17 year old yelling obscenities in his mothers face should not be considered a reasonable, standard behavioral problem. Standard behavior problems should be making it home on time at curfew, or making good grades. Those behavior problems should be dealt with in standard, non-physical discipline status. A boy or girl should never even CONTEMPLATE the non-standard discipline problems. That's the point.

I turned out well enough i'm not now nor have I ever served time in a correctional institution. That's better than some of these little twits are going to be able to say.

 

[Makalakumu]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I don't even know what to say to that. I'm fully confident some moron will come along shortly to defend this as a good idea.

Ok. What would you do? As a person who teaches the most difficult of kids, this is a problem that has few answers.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Ok. What would you do? As a person who teaches the most difficult of kids, this is a problem that has few answers.

I know what I would NOT do, and that is enable the behavior, encourage it, or simply ignore it and hope it went away. I know that this didn't occur in the household I grew up in, or the ones my friends grew up in, and it had nothing to do with poverty. In fact, many of the children causing these problems come from middle class families.

So, again, simply ignoring the behavior, and hoping it will go away works about as well with bad behavior as it does with skin cancer. The only thing that goes away if you ignore it, are your teeth.

 

[Makalakumu]

If a 17 year male yells obscenities in his mothers face or engages in physical violence against her or another family member, I have no problem with his father applying severe physical consequences, if that answers your question. If my son ever did the same with his mother, he would never in his life forget what would happen next. The idea that those consequences are off the table have caused a lot of problems in our society.

"Standard method of discipline"? No, but then again, a 17 year old yelling obscenities in his mothers face should not be considered a reasonable, standard behavioral problem. Standard behavior problems should be making it home on time at curfew, or making good grades. Those behavior problems should be dealt with in standard, non-physical discipline status. A boy or girl should never even CONTEMPLATE the non-standard discipline problems. That's the point.

I turned out well enough i'm not now nor have I ever served time in a correctional institution. That's better than some of these little twits are going to be able to say.

My students get the **** kicked out of them by their parents on a regular basis. I call my students parents to report on behavior and many do not come back for a couple of days because of the beating. When they do come back, their behavior is unchanged. Corporal punishment is not the answer. Getting beat on a regular basis is a way of life for many kids. They do not fear it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

My students get the **** kicked out of them by their parents on a regular basis. I call my students parents to report on behavior and many do not come back for a couple of days because of the beating. When they do come back, their behavior is unchanged. Corporal punishment is not the answer.

There's a difference between discipline and getting the crap kicked out of them because they stole mom's crack rock. That might be part of the problem there, upnorth. Don't compare what their parents do to real parenting. It's not discipline if it's done by a drunken, drugged out parent who's only mad because junior is inconveniencing their high.

 

[Makalakumu]

There's a difference between discipline and getting the crap kicked out of you because you stole mom's crack rock. That might be part of the problem there, upnorth. Don't compare what their parents do to real parenting.

I hear what you are saying. However, I'm just trying to point out that hitting my students in any way, shape, or form is not going to work. Its nothing new. They don't fear it. In fact, most likely, since these kids are seasoned fighters, one is going to be rolling in the dirt with them.

Teaching difficult children is all about building relationships. The teacher has to get to know the kid and his parents. The teacher has to be patient and model correct behavior. The teacher MUST have a thick skin. Words like **** **** or **** might get some teacher's panties in a bunch, but it just another behavior for me. Correcting these behaviors takes a long time. If I can reduce the amount of swearwords that come out of a kids mouth in a mouth, I'm succeeding.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I hear what you are saying. However, I'm just trying to point out that hitting my students in any way, shape, or form is not going to work. Its nothing new. They don't fear it. In fact, most likely, since these kids are seasoned fighters, one is going to be rolling in the dirt with them.

Teaching difficult children is all about building relationships. The teacher has to get to know the kid and his parents. The teacher has to be patient and model correct behavior. The teacher MUST have a thick skin. Words like **** **** or **** might get some teacher's panties in a bunch, but it just another behavior for me. Correcting these behaviors takes a long time. If I can reduce the amount of swearwords that come out of a kids mouth in a mouth, I'm succeeding.

Let me give you an analogy that comes for animal training. I've trained police K9's for several years. When we select K9's, we select the extreme dogs. Dogs that would make excellent pets, i.e. they are malliable, friendly, and well-behaved, aren't the dogs we pick. We like the sometimes stubborn, aggressive, slightly belligerent dog. They are difficult to handle, however, without a firm handler.

To simply "model" good behavior with this dog would simply resulted in the handler being unable to live with it (the dog would simply believe it is stronger than the handler, and would do what it wanted to do).

Now, there is, in dog training, there is a division of thought similar to the division in human discipline. Many dog trainers (pet level dog trainers) believe that only positive training methods should be used to train a dog (i.e. pet treats, clicker training, halties, etc). They believe physical corrections are abusive, and "ruin" the relationship with the dog, and should never be used.

Now, that's fine for the little Yorkie you bought and you want to teach him to sit, roll over and pee outside. The problem is, it doesn't account for the truly hard dogs. If you try that clicker training crap with truly rank working K9's, they'll probably bite you and eat the clicker. Why? Because dog behavior, in some ways like human behavior, is about respect.

The way you earn respect from a truly rank K9, is to give 100% correction when the dog is wrong, consistent everytime without fail, and give praise and reward when the dog does the right thing. The dog can never be allowed to fail, and must never thing it can avoid correction for bad behavior and will be rewarded in a timely manner for good behavior.

Further, with a K9, the correction must be contemporaneous with the bad behavior, it must happen as soon after as possible, and it must be suitably severe so as to overcome the K9's desire to perform that behavior. Conversely, reward must occurr as closely after good behavior as possibly.

The problem? It takes a strong handler and skilled handler to suitably apply correction and praise in appropriate amounts at appropriate times.

Now, some might say "Kids aren't dogs". That's true, human behavior is more complex than dog behavior, but the principles are the same. Correction works, when applied intelligently.

Now, lets look at what psychology tells us about human behavior, and what must be present to make correction effective.

Correction must be Contemporaneous with the event
Correction must be reasonably certain
Correction must be severe enough to make further behavior undesirable

Now, I don't look at difficult, strongwilled or aggressive children as necessarily bad. They simply must be directed with a more firm hand. They can be molded to extremly well functioning adults when molded by a firm hand that can apply praise and punishment in judicious quantities. Many is the drill instructor who has turned spoiled, abnoxious teenage boys in to grown men in mere weeks. They do it by placing them in situations where they are forced to mature and develop responsibility.

And yes, they do it partially by providing an example of what is considered good, and modelling that behavior. They do NOT do it by appearing weak. Simply tolerating their behavior, backing down from them, does not cause children to admire you, they ultimately resent what they see as weakness. Young boys admire, fear and respect power. They spend most of their teenage years trying to acquire it.

The goal is to get them to see the responsibility present with that power, and to emulate that as well. That's what a drill instructor does, he models power, authority and competence. Good drill instructors never show weakness, they show the kind of human being many young men aspire to become, and they who that the path to that power is paved with responsibility.

 

[Makalakumu]

The way you earn respect from a truly rank K9, is to give 100% correction when the dog is wrong, consistent everytime without fail, and give praise and reward when the dog does the right thing. The dog can never be allowed to fail, and must never thing it can avoid correction for bad behavior and will be rewarded in a timely manner for good behavior.

This is a good analogy. The key is consistancy. A student must never get away with bad behavior. Some consequence MUST follow. Physical consequences do not work in my setting. I am alone in the classroom with no backup. If the **** hits the fan, I get to deal with it. There is nothing "safe" about my job, but someone has to do it.

In other educational settings, physical consequences are used. Many of my current students come from facilities where certain behaviors result in the kid being physically removed from class. If reason fails or the kid resists, the student is thrown to the ground and a method of hold downs is used to make the kid complient.

When I worked in this setting, my judo training was very usefull. I worked with the older kids 16-18 years old and often was forced to use various throws and hold downs to subdue a kid until back-up arrived. Causing pain was not the point of this physical intervention. (Although, in some cases, I made sure certain holds were uncomfortable... ) The physical interventions are controlled, they are non-injurious, and I believe they are humane. The point of the physical intervention is to sap the students will to fight and to show the student that we are in absolute control of the situation.

 

[sgtmac_46]

This is a good analogy. The key is consistancy. A student must never get away with bad behavior. Some consequence MUST follow. Physical consequences do not work in my setting. I am alone in the classroom with no backup. If the **** hits the fan, I get to deal with it. There is nothing "safe" about my job, but someone has to do it.

Certainly, in your setting it is different. However, I am a firm believer, had parents done their job correctly, you wouldn't have to work as hard.

In other educational settings, physical consequences are used. Many of my current students come from facilities where certain behaviors result in the kid being physically removed from class. If reason fails or the kid resists, the student is thrown to the ground and a method of hold downs is used to make the kid complient.

I am familiar with these type of restraints, and they really can't be considered consequences. There is nothing punitive in their design, and most children like this view them as an inconvenience at best.

When I worked in this setting, my judo training was very usefull. I worked with the older kids 16-18 years old and often was forced to use various throws and hold downs to subdue a kid until back-up arrived. Causing pain was not the point of this physical intervention. (Although, in some cases, I made show certain holds were uncomfortable... ) The physical interventions are controlled, they are non-injurious, and I believe they are humane. The point of the physical intervention is to sap the students will to fight and to show the student that we are in absolute control of the situation.

Honestly, with children, often the threat of violence from a position of perceived power, actually trumps the actual use of force. As a child, it was the rarely seen, but ever present threat of potential violence, that was successful in keeping me in line. That was a violence who's limit I was not quite certain of, so I feared to provoke it.


But, bravo on making it your job to deal with these type of troubled children. i admire your committment to attempt to give them a better future.

 

[jonah2]

By the time this behaviour reaches secondary school its often too late to change and the responsibility lies with the generation before and that is us ladies and gents

History repeated itself a year or so ago with me. A youth through a stone at my window. I saw three youths run away and I recognised all three. I went to their parents to tell them what their kids were up to. One slammed the door in my face, one invited me in and then defended his son saying it was mistaken identity and the third did exactly what happened to me some 25 years ago. This parent brought the child infront of me, demanded an appology and immediately instigated punishment of restrivcted privilages, he offered to pay for any damage and told me the money would come from the childs earnings.

The point I am making is that 25 years ago myself and two mates were caught throwing stone, we were marched to our parents and all of the parents involved came down on us like a ton of bricks (nothing physical) but we certainly knew we were in the wrong and were to be punished.

Children will now, and always have mis behaved and will at all opertunities push the boundaries. We have a responsibility to draw the lines like our parents did. For some reason and I dont know why people cant be bothered to draw that line and stand by it. Until we do this will escilate. The trouble is the lines should be drawn from a VERY young age

jonah

 

[Makalakumu]

The goal is to get them to see the responsibility present with that power, and to emulate that as well. That's what a drill instructor does, he models power, authority and competence. Good drill instructors never show weakness, they show the kind of human being many young men aspire to become, and they who that the path to that power is paved with responsibility.

Most people do not want teachers to be like drill instructors, but some kids need it. I did not serve in the armed forces, but I know may who have. Most drill instructors, according to them, only yell because they need to make sure everyone can hear. They present themselves as strong authority figures and people follow.

In my job, this is no different. When students come into my class, they must know immediately who is in charge, but they also must be able to see that I am open to their needs. My students are abused, damaged, and poor. The one thing they've lacked in their lives is anything resembling consistancy.

Thus, my classroom MUST have the structure and consistancy that make it possible for a kid to learn.

Here is a different take on the article. The school has established a rule. The kids know the rule. The teachers enforce the rule consistantly. THAT is a recipe for good classroom management...good education.

I'm not sure where these kids come from or what their background is, but I suspect if the school is making rules where a kid can use five swears a day, the kids are normally using hundreds, perhaps thousands, per day. I seriously doubt these kids are clean cut, middle class, and well raised. Lets assume the kids resemble my student.

In my school, if we were to adopt such a policy, it would go as follows...The five swears per day will reduce the behavior if enforced consistantly. Next year, the bar is lowered and the behavior reduces again. The year after, the bar is lowered again...until the desired behavior is acheived.

During the time that the group behavior modification, students are graduating and new students are coming in. The new students are usually quiet for the first couple of days...while they observe the underlying currents and "actual" rules of the place. These students fall into line with the older students behaviors. This process cannot happen quicker. Social environments do not change over night. It takes years.

This article captures none of this. It presents the rule by itself, completely out of context, with no idea of what might really be going on. When one reads things like this, I think that it might be best to reserve judgement.

So, I guess I'm the moron because I defended it. Oh well, I hope people see things in a little different light with a little more context.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

Certainly, in your setting it is different. However, I am a firm believer, had parents done their job correctly, you wouldn't have to work as hard.

I 100% agree with this. The parents could have made a difference if they had the ability to do so. Many of my student's parents do not have this ability. They pass on negative generational traits that contribute to a cycle of disfunction and there is absolutely no internal incentive to break that cycle. I believe the intervention must come from the outside. Parent education, child care aid, substance abuse treatment, mental health treatment, etc.

Breaking this cycle of disfunction is the most important thing we can do for these kids. Without this, nothing will change. Also, blaming the parents after the fact, solves nothing. It only creates scapegoats. A problem is recognized. The only thing missing that is the will to implement the solutions.

I am familiar with these type of restraints, and they really can't be considered consequences. There is nothing punitive in their design, and most children like this view them as an inconvenience at best.

Students do not like the feeling of powerlessness this type of restraint imparts. But it is an important lesson for them to learn...that there are authority figures that must be obeyed. A kid doesn't need to be punished in order to learn these things. Also, the kids that I restrained fought back with all of their strength and ability. It was obviously more then an inconvenience.

Honestly, with children, often the threat of violence from a position of perceived power, actually trumps the actual use of force. As a child, it was the rarely seen, but ever present threat of potential violence, that was successful in keeping me in line. That was a violence who's limit I was not quite certain of, so I feared to provoke it.

The "threat" does not have to be violence. In fact, it may not even be a threat. The "consequence" must be consistent. And the consequence can take many forms.

But, bravo on making it your job to deal with these type of troubled children. i admire your committment to attempt to give them a better future.

My hope is that we can make a difference with some of these kids and make yours and your collegues jobs easier. I want these kids to be successful and I feel that we are making a difference. There future is the point. They need to be shown how to take part in the American Dream before it is possible.