frauds

[Don Roley]

Don, I think you would be quite suprised by the opinion many of the people you do know have about you.

I know you are never going to give the name of one of these folks. I believe that this was dealt with by Sharp Phil in one of his articles on internet fraud tactics. Essentially you claim that many people have been backing you up by private e-mail and such, but of course these people will not post themselves and their identities are never given.

And I do not plan on going to SF- why should I? I am here in Japan if you or your teacher desire to stop by.

 

[gozanryu]

I asked about SF because I thought there was (passed?future?) a Tai Kai there. Just trying to shorten the travel distance (I travel to SF for Business occasionally) And as far as Naming names. Be careful, this is one of those places were you often stick your foot in your own mouth. And like wise, let me know if your stateside, I can see a rousing "beer-fest" on the horizon.

I know you are never going to give the name of one of these folks. I believe that this was dealt with by Sharp Phil in one of his articles on internet fraud tactics. Essentially you claim that many people have been backing you up by private e-mail and such, but of course these people will not post themselves and their identities are never given.

And I do not plan on going to SF- why should I? I am here in Japan if you or your teacher desire to stop by.

 

[Bujingodai]

Don, you are suprised that some people don't like you?

I'm not all that fond of the way you come across. I respect the research that you do but you can be a rather arrogant ******* at times.

 

[Bujingodai]

So I was in effect just naming my name. Is that a start?

 

[Don Roley]

So I was in effect just naming my name. Is that a start?

Yep, and I am impressed with your willingness to step up and say so. But I am not surprised that you think I am arrogent. We are not exactly buddies, after all.

But anyone who hints that people who know me talk behind my back and then refuses to back it up is not honorable in my book. I know your opnion of me, hinting that others will not tell me wha tthey think, but will tell Ken is pretty close to what phil wrote about. I know there are people like Sojobobo, Ninpoopkai and others that say nasty things about me. The thing is, I think that is an honor to be called nasty names by people like the Konigun and Juko-kai with their legal and ethical records.

 

[Bujingodai]

Well I will only call you a nasty name to your face, or keyboard Don.

 

[gozanryu]

Don, how dare you invoke the term "honorable" You don't know the first thing about honor as is evidenced by your personal attacks on Phelps credentials, then your total LACK of honor upon finding you are wrong about some of those things. You did not (do not) have enough "Honor" to honor the truth. You are a pathetic example of honor if this "internet " personality is really you. You have no character buddy. You cant even ADMIT when you are wrong. How can you consider yourself as being honorable. You should be ashamed of yourself you self riteous troll. No matter how much Japanese language and History you study, your character is still up to you to earn.

Your Buddy Phelps, he has Certified Degrees from Prestigious Universities, he served his country honorably in harms way, he is an ordained Priest hmmmmmm, come to think of it Don. List your credentials here so that we may scrutinize them. I think you are hiding something, what, with your failure to Talk with your Soke and Friend on this subject, what is your rank? You have said that Kevin Millis and Dr. Glenn Morris are unqualified to represent your art, perhaps you hold rank above them. I have talked to both of them Don. The smiles on there faces were interesting, to say the least.

 

[Don Roley]

Don, how dare you invoke the term "honorable" You don't know the first thing about honor as is evidenced by your personal attacks on Phelps credentials, then your total LACK of honor upon finding you are wrong about some of those things.

Go ahead and read this post. As you can see, I admited that Phelps did attend BUDs training. But of course, I can't confirm damn near anything else about him. I can't even get you guys to reveal the name of the shihan you claim invited Phleps to Japan to train with Hatsumi. I see the same type of behavior from guys like Frank Dux's front man Sojobow. Talking about things as if they existed but refusing to back those claims up, etc.

But I have to give points to you guys for the viciousness if your personal attacks on your critics.

 

[Don Roley]

You have said that Kevin Millis and Dr. Glenn Morris are unqualified to represent your art, perhaps you hold rank above them. I have talked to both of them Don. The smiles on there faces were interesting, to say the least.

I have never been known for being subtle, so let me say this...

Any hint that Ken has that he talked to Kevin Millis and Glenn Morris about me is a lie plain and simple. He may do like Sojobobo and not actually say it, but he is hinting at it. And I know that he did not.

Dave, you started this thread about training with frauds. I ask you if you want to train with a group like this that lies in order to silence it's critics. Personal integrity seems to mean something to you based on what you ahve said. Are you going to back that up with some sort of action? And if you say you will keep it secret, I will show you exactly how I know Ken is lying.

Please think about it Dave.

 

[gozanryu]

Don, to be clear, I did speak to both of them. (at seperate times) and mentioned that some in the Bujinkan suggested they may not be representative of the art. i did not say I was in a close relationship with them, or had studied with them, or that we are friends. I DID NOT name you because that would have been dishonorable, smack talk. Thats not a secret.
As far as confirming or denying, hmmm. . . what about your troll regarding Bow Sim Mark?
What about your troll attacking his "priesthood"
What about your troll regarding his degrees?

Its no secret that you are lying.

See Don, you still cannot admit you are wrong.

I will give you credit though, I can see you took ownership of the SEAL thing, but I think thats because your own buddies clubbed you with it. I realy don't want to escalate this Don. But, you have bees a real jerk when it comes to Phelps, you disregarded him and his crendintial offhand, like he is some 16 year old, then you talk about honor. . . . I wonder what you would have to say in the reverse of this situation. If you really want to continue on this, you can e-mail, I will call you at the time of your choosing on my dime.

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Don where did I use the F* word? And where did I use the N* word in other than a journalistic fashion, which btw is still perfectly legal. Whom did I call the N* word? Please put up the entire post.

In my opinion you are a twisted and pathetic little man Don who should spend more time training rather than spending so much time following me (us) around on eboards when someone asks a question on this topic. But if that's what you need to compensate for maybe a lack of martial skill then good for you I say. I'm happy to help.

It is true, I make no appologies when I point out things I think are wrong. However, I do and have appologized to people when appropriate. You're just not one of them.

 

[Don Roley]

Don where did I use the F* word?

Right here.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164472#post164472

Now you are trying to deny it? They blanked out the word, but you can see what you are saying.

You make a bigoted comment and now are trying to play the innocent. Truely, you have no honor. But considering that you ahve tried to attack all the critics that point out the problems with your story, that is no surprise.

Especially when you try to twist what I say like this,

And where did I use the N* word in other than a journalistic fashion, which btw is still perfectly legal. Whom did I call the N* word? Please put up the entire post.

This is what I actually wrote,

I called Steve a bigot because he used the "F- word" and has shown no regrets about it. If he had used the "N-word" I would call him a racist.

Note I used the term "if".

Don, to be clear, I did speak to both of them. (at seperate times) and mentioned that some in the Bujinkan suggested they may not be representative of the art. i did not say I was in a close relationship with them, or had studied with them, or that we are friends. I DID NOT name you because that would have been dishonorable, smack talk. Thats not a secret.

Nope, you are lying. Prove that you talked with them about this.

What about your troll attacking his "priesthood"
What about your troll regarding his degrees?

Its no secret that you are lying.

Note that you will not give exact quotes or links like I was able to at the top of this post. If you attack someone and make accusations about them enough, someone may beleive it. Ken, you stayed quiet when Steve unjustly called Wayne Muromoto a racist when no one else thought that the term "cheese smelling gaijin" was anything other than a humorous poke at the way some Japanese treat gaijin, and you tried to brand el Guapo a liar his silly little joke that no one else took seriously. You ahve a pattern of attacking the people who disagree with you. That is a big sign of the "***** squad" aspect of a martial arts cult.

You say I am lying, but you know Phelps claims to have been invited to Japan, but refuses so far to give the name of the person who supposably did this. And he claims to speak Japanese fluently, but we know the examples he gives makes native speakers laugh. I could go on about all these false statements that Phelpsmakes, and you have no problem with it and instead try to brand me the liar instead.

If it looks like a Dux and quacks like a Dux......

 

[gozanryu]

Don, you have truelly lost your mind!

"Note that you will not give exact quotes or links like I was able to at the top of this post" OK Don, you provide links and proof to your "proof" of Phelps fraudulent degrees and Military Service.

"You ahve a pattern of attacking the people who disagree with you. That is a big sign of the "***** squad" aspect of a martial arts cult" uh Don, are you not talking about yourself?

"Nope, you are lying. Prove that you talked with them about this" no, your right, I did not have a court reporter present at the time of my meeting(s) SO, you prove that you talked to anyone who can verify any of your claims as to Phelps fraudulent claims. (naturally, we will only accept court affadaivits as legitamate evidence) I guess that means that anything you have ever said is a lie. And as far as that goes, prove that I did'nt.

However, you flat busted Steve. All this time I thought it was the "other" F word. So now, you copy and paste here where I participated in ANY WAY in that BS. Otherwise, type in "Sorry Ken, I was wrong, I was talking about STeve, specifically. I know i "inferred you did it, but that was only to get more mileage out of it. Whoops! Whats a little slander among friends?"
Don, I have said that if I do or say it, I will own it, no matter how painful. I mean that. Do not slander me, please. Don't go there. Your credibilty is suspect enough. When are you going to answer all the questions I asked about you? Scared? A little? And is Tai Kai in SF or not? Are you going if it is? :mp5:

 

[Don Roley]

Don, you have truelly lost your mind!

"Note that you will not give exact quotes or links like I was able to at the top of this post" OK Don, you provide links and proof to your "proof" of Phelps fraudulent degrees and Military Service.

Uh, excuse me, but where did I say what you say I did? Trying to twist the conversation again to attack me? I say it again- you say I say something and refuse to post quotes and links BECAUSE I NEVER SAID IT AND YOU KNOW IT. It is just part of your pattern of behavior of attackin gthose that disagree with you.

"Nope, you are lying. Prove that you talked with them about this" no, your right, I did not have a court reporter present at the time of my meeting(s) SO, you prove that you talked to anyone who can verify any of your claims as to Phelps fraudulent claims. (naturally, we will only accept court affadaivits as legitamate evidence) I guess that means that anything you have ever said is a lie. And as far as that goes, prove that I didn't.

Ah yes, "I said it and will not prove it- and you are going to have to prove I am lying." I can prove it, but I want to do it with Dave Gibb first so that he can confirm it and report back here. And note again, you are asking me to prove things that I never claimed. Quite simply put, you made a claim, refused to back it up and that in itself is a sign of lying. The fact that I have something to share with Dave is just icing on the cake.

Do not slander me, please. Don't go there. Your credibilty is suspect enough. When are you going to answer all the questions I asked about you? Scared? A little? And is Tai Kai in SF or not? Are you going if it is? :mp5:

So how come you have no problem with him slandering Wayne Muromoto a racist, attacking Dave Lowry or using hate filled language? You say nothing, and say that I am attacking Phelps for pointing out things like that he said he was fluent in Japanese and proved he was not with his use of the language? Or that a good many of his claims can not be verified? Or that he refuses to provide proof for things like his supposed invitation to Japan? Quess what, if it looks like a Dux and quacks like a Dux, it is probably a Dux. And you guys are acting just like Frank Dux with the same tactics, the same types of claims, etc.

And I am not going to any Bujinkan training in America. Think about it. I live in Japan and you think I would go to America for instruction?

I am only going to provide my credentials as they are relevent to the conversation. They are not relevent and are just your strategy of turning the conversation around and away from yourself. As well as what Phil Elmore wrote when he said this.

WHO ARE YOU TO CHALLENGE ME?

As I wrote in How To Spot a Virtual Sensei, VTGs and VSs are bullies who believe force is the appropriate solution to every disagreement. Part of the psychology behind this attitude is the logically flawed notion that no criticism is valid unless voiced by someone of higher rank or longer experience. When called on their claims or questioned on their opinions, VTGs and VSs often will demand to know the rank, style, and years of experience possessed by the critic. If this information is provided, the VS or VTG will then dismiss the criticism as coming from someone who is his or her "junior" in the arts. This does not invalidate the criticism, of course – you need not be able to beat someone up, nor need you possess a belt one shade darker, for your opinion to be logically and factually valid – but in the minds of the VS and VTG it is all the rebuttal necessary. Anyone who has ever attended a commercial McDojo has seen this attitude displayed, too, by the small percentage of students strutting about condescending to those whose belts are at least one shade lighter.

 

[gozanryu]

Don, the reason I said to "prove that I am lying" is because you are asking the same thing! I know its circular. (PS I dont know Dave Gibb) You claim(ed) that Phelps was a fraud by saying that he had "lied about many things" you do not have proof of him lying about anything. Period. So what does that make you? And of course you will not give your credentials, or prove any of them. Why? Well, you shouldnt have to, we should take you at face value right? Why should anyone doubt your claims? You said it, it must be true. Thats reasonable right? Exactly, Don. So you think about that a little. I wonder why you didnt apply that thinking to Phelps? Why would you say your Credintials are not rellevent to the purvey of this discussion, but then say the Phelps' are?

"you made a claim, refused to back it up and that in itself is a sign of lying." Don, you did this EXACT thing yourself when you said Phelps was "lying about many things" you are totally incorrigable!

And on your last Homage to Phil, I want to be clear. Are you challenging me Mr. Roley?

And lastly, I thought that since you are the bedrock of the orginization, no Tai Kai would be allowed to transpire without you. Thats all. I want to see you talk like this when your face to face with someone.

 

[Bujingodai]

Don, Ken is correct. I am more familiar with Mr McGovern from the Indie board that I run. I am familiar with Saito ryu in the sense that they are an indie group by mainstream description. What is it that you wish to share anyway?

There are schools I am more familiar with.

 

[Don Roley]

You claim(ed) that Phelps was a fraud by saying that he had "lied about many things" you do not have proof of him lying about anything. Period.

Anything? I guess one example will be enough.

Phelps claims to be fluent in Japanese. Yet he stated in his article that "Shorinjin" means "men of Shaolin." You ask any person like Tony Kehoe with proven Japanese ability if a fluent person would say that and you will get the answer that no one with real fluency woudl make that statement.

I could go on, and did on another thread. But now the thing is that you lied about talking to Morris and Millis.

Dave, I am talking about the integrity of the senior levels of the Saito ryu. Ken lied about talking to Millis and Morris in an attempt to slime me. Just as McGovern slimed Muromoto as a racist because he dared to say he beleived the Saito ryu was a creation of Mark Saito sr. You stopped associating with groups like the Nindo ryu when their intergrity was proven to be questionable to say the least. Do you want to associate with people that act the same as they?

 

[Don Roley]

However, you flat busted Steve. All this time I thought it was the "other" F word.

Ken,
Just so that everyone else is clear on this, I want to point out that on page one of this thread I posted the link to McGovern's use of a hate-filled comment. And now you are trying to say that you never even bothered to check that link and see for yourself before you blasted into me in defense of McGovern.

And what they hell do you mean, "And on your last Homage to Phil, I want to be clear. Are you challenging me Mr. Roley?" Challenging you? What kind of twisting do you have to do to pull that out of what I posted?

 

[Don Roley]

And of course you will not give your credentials, or prove any of them. Why? Well, you shouldnt have to, we should take you at face value right? Why should anyone doubt your claims? You said it, it must be true. Thats reasonable right?

Ok, let us take a look at the above statement. Let me break it down for folks.

Ken asks me what rank I am, etc.

I say that it is not relevent and refuse unless he can show how it is relevent.

Ken in the quote above says that I refuse to back up my claims because I will not make a claim about rank, etc.

So, I won't make any claims about rank, and that puts me in the same class as himself and Phelps who make claims and refuse to back them up.

Does this make sense to anyone outside of the Saito ryu? To me, it sounds like a Frank Dux type of misdirection. If I had said that I feel that the Saito ryu is fraudulant becasue I am......., it would make sense. But I have not. I have not relied on my claims or credentials other than my Japanese ability and studies of Japanese history. My belt rank has nothing to do with the conversation.

But the Saito ryu wants to make it all seem like I need to give rank in order to be taken seriously. Go read the quote by Sharp Phil above.

 

[gozanryu]

Everybody can see through your mis-direction Don.
What Rank do you Hold?
What syatem of Martial ARts do you hold the Ranking in? What is your educational Background?
All these questions speak directly ro credibility in this discussion. No way around it.
Prove I lied, expose my lye, as I have yours, and we will have another lesson tp share on acceptance.