"Fighting" with Wing Chun weapons?

[anerlich]

If you're talking about depth and breadth, breadth-wise I would contend the curriculum is finite. Three forms, 108+ dummy movements, two weapons forms. Implementing those in chi sao, drills, and sparring. You could argue there's more, but that's the vast bulk of it.

Depth, I would suggest, is not linear, but exponential and asymptotic. You'll take the same time to get from 90% to 99% as you did from 0 to 90%, and the same time to get from 99% to 99.9%. You never get to 100%. Like 99% of all statistics, I made these numbers up on the spot, but hopefully this makes some sense.

I think there is a medium to strike here, which ends up to some degree at least dependent on the student and instructor. You need to avoid the old proverb about experts, learning more and more about less and less until eventually you know everything about nothing.

Masters across most martial arts take decades to reach the level where that honorific applies. You get called Professor in BJJ after 6 years as a black belt, Mestre after around 31 years at black. The BJJ technical spread is WAY bigger than WC and continually expanding. You can't hope for much more than to become competent at an effective subset of it, and understand it enough to extrapolate that knowledge out if confronted with techniques or situations you've not seen before. "Mastering all of Jiu Jitsu" is impossible, the sun will go red giant in about 4.5 billion years and that still won't be enough.

But you should be proficient enough to guide you own training and start teaching others in just about any endeavour within ten years. That seems to fit in with the Malcolm Gladwell Outliers idea, if you subscribe to that.

Jeez, you can get to be a doctor in around a decade. Though a pretty intense decade. Longer for a specialist.

 

[Eric_H]

I understand what you're saying, but Wing Chun was developed to be learned in a short amount of time. Learned. Not mastered. Life isn't long enough to master Wing Chun. As I said, SNT is one piece of the puzzle. Everything else builds on the foundation. It's important, essential, but it will never be complete.

Our version of that "quick to learn" assumption is pretty different to mainstream WC. Hung Fa Kuen (Red Flower Boxing) was the stuff you'd be taught quickly for fighting that was a small subset of the full thing. HFY formal curriculum is more like a "normal" CMA. Just takes comparatively forever to get through because it's got so many things.

That said, your point is an accurate one. If SNT was everything, what would we need the other forms for?

 

[Eric_H]

Jeez, you can get to be a doctor in around a decade. Though a pretty intense decade. Longer for a specialist.

That probably would have been a better use of my time.

 

[Juany118]

So how does Escima and WC relate? It would seem to me that it would be similar to using the WC swords, is that correct?

Coming from my FMA experience I think the first thing, and possibly the most important, is that you learn the differences in timing and distance that rise from having weapons. In my school we not only do extensive stick/sword work (we say "we can fight with stick but we are training to fight with swords") but knives as well and so you essentially learn to fight at what amounts to 3 distances. After that I would say that it helps because whether training double stick/sword, or espada y daga, you are learning to coordinate 2 weapons. Additionally you learn the idea of "defang the snake". Now this may just apply to TWC as being similar however. When I took WSLVT (GL lineage) while there was some talk of going for the wrists that wield the weapon there was a strong focus on the idea of you needing to be almost suicidally aggressive to get inside your opponents guard for the "kill shot". In TWC the idea is to eliminate the opponents guard (go for the limbs wielding the weapons) and THEN go in for the kill shot, so it is similar to "defang the snake". I say similar because in the Kali I study if you have an opportunity to strike any limb; legs, even feet included, you do so because the enemy that can not stand is almost as vulnerable as the one who can't wield the weapon.

Those are the three things that immediately jump to mind as being applicable. Beyond that I think the actual weapon use, while adaptable, is a different beast. The Kali I study is more "flowing" because there is more than a little Spanish Sword influence in it. I know that this influence is indeed present in FMA, and thus will be present in Inosanto Kali, but my lineage passed through Master at Arms James Keating so I would not doubt if the "western" sword work element was enhanced a bit. As an example of this western influence, while we have many of the "typical" wall art you would expect in either a WC or FMA school we also have this hanging on the wall.

Now from what I have learned of other forms of FMA this wheel is appropriate BUT I think it's overt presence is a legacy of Keating vs FMA.

 

[geezer]

...The Kali I study is more "flowing" because there is more than a little Spanish Sword influence in it.

I see a lot of stuff in some FMA groups that really stressed the pure Filipino roots of their arts. I have my doubts. National pride is a fine thing I suppose, but it doesn't always yield the most objective historical perspective. Personally, I believe that Spanish/European swordsmanship are an important part of the intrinsic DNA of FMA, just as Spanish culture has left an indelible mark on the wonderful cultural blend of the PI in general.

Regardless, the FMA I started with was developed by my teacher, a Filipino American who was one of the early students at the Escrima Academy in Stockton, USA. He was also a boxer. Later, in Europe he partnered up with a WC guy who had a HEMA background. You can really see the HEMA influence in some of their European schools. Since then I've trained with other American FMA groups, such as the DTE guys.

The result is that the "FMA" I train and teach is a global martial art with deep Filipino, Asian and European roots. In our group we have Americans of diverse ethnic backgrounds and yet we all feel that this art resonates with each of our own cultural backgrounds. And I like that.

 

[geezer]

BTW Wing Chun has definitely influenced my personal expression of the FMA I train ...and, although this may not go over well with purists, the reverse is equally true. The FMA has influenced, I would even say improved my WC as well.

 

[geezer]

One thing I am careful about regarding FMA and my WC (VT) is that still emphasize efficiency with an obsession, and although we often strike the hands and arms, we do not chase hands or deviate from our strategy of direct attack. If we do strike a hand, it usually happens as a by product of attacking to the center, much like WC! Why try to disarm a snake if you can kill it with the same stroke!

 

[Juany118]

I see a lot of stuff in some FMA groups that really stressed the pure Filipino roots of their arts. I have my doubts. National pride is a fine thing I suppose, but it doesn't always yield the most objective historical perspective. Personally, I believe that Spanish/European swordsmanship are an important part of the intrinsic DNA of FMA, just as Spanish culture has left an indelible mark on the wonderful cultural blend of the PI in general.

Regardless, the FMA I started with was developed by my teacher, a Filipino American who was one of the early students at the Escrima Academy in Stockton, USA. He was also a boxer. Later, in Europe he partnered up with a WC guy who had a HEMA background. You can really see the HEMA influence in some of their European schools. Since then I've trained with other American FMA groups, such as the DTE guys.

The result is that the "FMA" I train and teach is a global martial art with deep Filipino, Asian and European roots. In our group we have Americans of diverse ethnic backgrounds and yet we all feel that this art resonates with each of our own cultural backgrounds. And I like that.

First when I said more flowing I was speaking in reference to WC. WC as I study it is more linear, the Kali as I study it is... perhaps "circular" flow is a better description.

As for European influence I think that also has to do with where in the Philippines the specific FMA style originates. The further south you go, at least from my understanding, the greater the Silat influence and the lesser the Spanish Influence.

There is actually a book I want to try and find that speaks to this issue. The South was never really pacified by either the Spanish or the USA so the Silat of Indonesia etc had a greater influence. Some of the "schools" in the south go so far that they will only teach fellow Muslims The book also goes into an interesting idea that has some evidence in original sources that where not only did Filipinos on Spanish ships learn Spanish sword but that the Spanish Colonial Government taught chosen Filipino's the Spanish method of fencing to protect the Colony from Muslim Pirates coming from the South, Indonesia etc.

 

[geezer]

....The book also goes into an interesting idea that has some evidence in original sources that where not only did Filipinos on Spanish ships learn Spanish sword but that the Spanish Colonial Government taught chosen Filipino's the Spanish method of fencing to protect the Colony from Muslim Pirates coming from the South, Indonesia etc.

And that Spanish fencing, or esgrima, would not be the aristocratic art of rapier dueling or la verdadera destreza, but the simple practical art of the cutlass and saber as used by sailors and soldiers. This would have melded quite well nicely the native filipino arts using bladed aricultural tools such as bolos and itaks. Interestingly, I read that the use of the cutlass on European and American merchant marine ships as a "weapon of last resort" to repel pirates, etc. was only phased out in favor of firearms after
WWI. Prior to this time, ships crews were routinesly drilled in the basics of cutlass use with singlestick training. So this would have definitely been knowledge available to Filipino sailors.

Here isa a clip I found. I actually know one of these guys. I didn't know that his group did singlestick training though. Small world! O mejor digamos que el mundo es un panuelo...

 

[Juany118]

And that Spanish fencing, or esgrima, would not be the aristocratic art of rapier dueling or la verdadera destreza, but the simple practical art of the cutlass and saber as used by sailors and soldiers. This would have melded quite well nicely the native filipino arts using bladed aricultural tools such as bolos and itaks. Interestingly, I read that the use of the cutlass on European and American merchant marine ships as a "weapon of last resort" to repel pirates, etc. was only phased out in favor of firearms after
WWI. Prior to this time, ships crews were routinesly drilled in the basics of cutlass use with singlestick training. So this would have definitely been knowledge available to Filipino sailors.

Here isa a clip I found. I actually know one of these guys. I didn't know that his group did singlestick training though. Small world! O mejor digamos que el mundo es un panuelo...

Agreed on the method (soldiers and sailors). Seems a small world...if I remember right you are in Texas. I have an acquaintance (friend of a friend) who goes by the Facebook tag "Dakao Do" who does HEMA and hosted a HEMA single stick weekend event in the Houston area in 2016. There are also pretty cool video on Youtube showing that cutlass training survived into the post WWI period...

 

[wingchun100]

I think the knives are more in line with the Wing Chun approach to fighting than the pole. Wing Chun is meant to be short range, and so are the knives. Maybe that is why I have seen some schools who teach pole last? I never thought of it that way though until now.

Interesting thought though. Think about it: in the empty hand forms, Biu Jee is taught last because, as some say, it "breaks" the rules established in Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu. Then you have the dummy, knives, and pole. The dummy and knives seem to "stick to the rules," while the pole "breaks" them.

Hmmm...

 

[wingerjim]

I think the knives are more in line with the Wing Chun approach to fighting than the pole. Wing Chun is meant to be short range, and so are the knives. Maybe that is why I have seen some schools who teach pole last? I never thought of it that way though until now.

Interesting thought though. Think about it: in the empty hand forms, Biu Jee is taught last because, as some say, it "breaks" the rules established in Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu. Then you have the dummy, knives, and pole. The dummy and knives seem to "stick to the rules," while the pole "breaks" them.

Hmmm...

Hi Wingechun100. I am sorry but I do not think Biu Jee breaks the rules as the other forms are concerned but takes them to a new level. One of the things it teaches is to recover the center and stance you lean in Sil Lum Tau and adds to Chum Kiu by offering more movements. Also the pole enhances power, thus taking the empty hand forms to a new enhanced level. I understand how one would look at those two forms as breaking the rule but I don't see it that way, I choose to look at the enhancement where the system as a whole takes the practitioner to a new more powerful level and the cycle back to Sil Lim Tau as the foundation of the system is enhances through continuous practice of the whole system.

 

[wingchun100]

Hi Wingechun100. I am sorry but I do not think Biu Jee breaks the rules as the other forms are concerned but takes them to a new level. One of the things it teaches is to recover the center and stance you lean in Sil Lum Tau and adds to Chum Kiu by offering more movements. Also the pole enhances power, thus taking the empty hand forms to a new enhanced level. I understand how one would look at those two forms as breaking the rule but I don't see it that way, I choose to look at the enhancement where the system as a whole takes the practitioner to a new more powerful level and the cycle back to Sil Lim Tau as the foundation of the system is enhances through continuous practice of the whole system.

I didn't say it breaks the rules...I said that some people say it does.

 

[KPM]

In my lineage, the pole, and especially the bart cham dao, are introduced very late in the training. The pole form and exercises are begun generally after Biu Tze form, and often after the dummy form is started (a minimum of 6 or so more years in training). The Bart Cham Dao is taught only to those nearing master-level (15+ years in).

----The pretty clear implication here is that you have to stick around and pay your fees for a LONG time before you are going to get the "advanced" stuff. Carrot on a stick?


What this means is that so few are trained in the weapons that 1. They do not contribute to the empty-handed skills of the vast majority who train in our system, and 2. Any chance at developing practical skill with weapons through regular drilling and sparring with a variety of opponents simply cannot happen. A few at our association headquarters may get that chance, but it simply can't happen at branch schools at all!

---That is a travesty! Wing Chun is not that complicated! Not at all like Gung Fu systems that have a dozen empty hand forms and a dozen different weapons to learn. If they can teach someone their curriculum in less than a lifetime, why couldn't Wing Chun/Wing Tsun???

---Now I think there is a practical reason for leaving weapons until near the end of the curriculum. And that is available space! If you are teaching in Hong Kong where space is at a premium and you have a decent sized class of students, it isn't very practical to have everyone waving around a pair of short swords...even dull ones! Nor is it practical to have everyone wielding an 8 foot pole at the same time, or trying to have enough wooden dummies available that everyone gets a chance to train on one. So it makes sense to reserve those three things for more "one on one" instruction provided to those students that are loyal enough to stick around for awhile. But 15 years?


How about the rest of you? Do you start weapons training earlier and practice it in a more functional way?

---I have a small group and most of the time we train outside at a park. So space isn't a problem. I've been teaching the pole in parallel with the empty hands. While the pole and empty hands share many of the core concepts, the body mechanics and movements are very different, which almost makes them two completely separate systems. So there is no reason to leave the pole until the end of the curriculum as long as you have space, poles, and time available to train it. The knives I try to introduce by periodically handing out training knives and having students go through the same empty-hand motions we just trained but with the knives in hand. This is to emphasize the fact that the knives are largely an extension of the empty hand motions and show them that what they are learning applies to the knives as well. It also gives them a new appreciation for what they are doing empty-hand to feel what it is like to do the same thing with the knives. The knive form itself will come later simply because they need those empty-hand skills and footwork to do the form well. None of my small group are to that point yet. All of my students are required to have their own pole and to bring it to training. We start out the session working on the pole and then finish with empty-hand. Sometimes the pole portion is short and just used as a warm-up. Sometimes the pole is the emphasis of that day's training. I haven't required everyone to purchase their own training knives. But I encourage it for the guys that are getting further along in the curriculum.

---Another point. Many people say that training the BJD will translate over to any kind of short weapon. This is true to an extent. But the BJD are typically always trained as a pair. So you get used to having one knife to back up the other. But if you try many of the same techniques or motions with a single knive or a single stick while using your other empty hand as you would if it still held a knive, it can get you hurt! FMA guys know exactly what I'm talking about. So if you truly are training the BJD with the idea that it will cross-over to a simple stick....then you need to train with just one BJD blade in hand almost as much as you do with the pair. I have trained some Serrada Escrima in the past and have found that when I do the Wing Chun knife with just one knife, the Serrada techniques overlap very well with it. The Serrada taught me what to do with the empty/checking hand. And it is NOT what you would do if you were holding a Wing Chun knife in that hand!