Fake black belts

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Jimmythebull

Jimmythebull

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Personal creativity. Anatomy plays a part in this.
OK but does this not water down the original techniques ? I get that there are some 3rd dans with a big belly but the lower grades need to learn strict techniques for future examinations, or at least in my world. This is where it gets murky... what i have noticed is in some dojos the more fit 1st dans do most of the ground teachings.
 
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Jimmythebull

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20. There are 3rd dan or even higher grades.

21. Your sensei has one of those grades.
 

lklawson

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He just also ignored the mod warning and called me "intransigent". Ouch, yet another personal attack. This guy.

Oh well, some people never learn.

I could post the specific Ohio law that addresses illegal martial arts advertising in his state, but that will probably just enrage him further. He needs to have the final say.
Intransigent is not an insult and if you think it is, you should report it to the mods.

And yes, you are intransigent.
 

lklawson

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I never made either of these claims. I never brought up the BBB, you did.
In this post: Fake black belts
You claim, "There are ways to report any business owner in America who is selling martial arts services." That's different than making a criminal complaint and it sure sounds like you are referencing BBB.


And I never said the FTC hands out criminal charges, did I? Pretty sure I've been saying all this time these are civil issues (unless you have been screwing your students under the age of consent). That said, the FTC will refer criminal suspicions to the DOJ.
Same post you wrote, "Truth be told, it is against the law (in the US) to advertise something that is false, commercially. That includes fake lineages, belts, etc." and then immediately link to the FTC.


Identity theft is criminal fraud too, so if you open up shop claiming to be a famous instructor and you are not, you're gonna both civil fraud (from people you defraud) and criminal fraud charges (from state prosecutors).
Wait, now you're claiming that someone who's claiming a black belt or claiming that they're "famous" and isn't is engaging in Identity Theft? Really? Or are you really suggesting that someone is out there claiming they are Bruce Lee?


Your combativeness can leave now. Ala peanut butter sandwiches!!
You're bizarre and unsupported claims are what should leave. You can stay, but, honestly, stop making demonstrably untrue claims.
 

lklawson

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I read "no..no...no..nope" in multiple block quote beatdowns, after basically reading up on the FTC and Ohio AG website and sharing my personal experience. Was even called fake on the BBB...an org I never even brought up! WTH!?

It's just weird to me, to be called out as making false statements. I'm just paraphrasing legal authorities. I'm not debating anyone's opinions, that's a big waste of time IMHO.

I think he' genuinely angry, for some reason. This topic cut close to the bone. Ok
Really? You directly misrepresented Ohio law when you wrote, "You can't even use the word "free" freely, in OH, in commercial advertising, without potentially violating the law." What you are implying there is patently untrue. Advertisers can, in fact, use the word "free" it just has to be, you know, actually free; and it's write there in the law you referenced where, in ORC, it says, "It is the express intent of this rule to prohibit the practice of advertising or offering goods or services as "free" when in fact the cost of the "free" offer is passed on to the consumer by raising the regular (base) price of the goods or services that must be purchased in connection with the "free" offer."

The only question is, did you deliberately misrepresent ORC by specifically neglecting to include what it said in order to try to score points or, instead, were you just lazy and didn't read the law in your haste to try to get a 'gotcha' moment? Which was it, A or B?
 

Oily Dragon

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In this post: Fake black belts
You claim, "There are ways to report any business owner in America who is selling martial arts services." That's different than making a criminal complaint and it sure sounds like you are referencing BBB.
Not really. Thanks for admiting you made that BBB part up.

Same post you wrote, "Truth be told, it is against the law (in the US) to advertise something that is false, commercially. That includes fake lineages, belts, etc." and then immediately link to the FTC.
It is against the law, federally and in Ohio.

Like I posted earlier...
Wait, now you're claiming that someone who's claiming a black belt or claiming that they're "famous" and isn't is engaging in Identity Theft? Really? Or are you really suggesting that someone is out there claiming they are Bruce Lee?
I said identity theft is a crime, and factors into some fraudulent martial arts school claims.

Are you confused?
You're bizarre and unsupported claims are what should leave. You can stay, but, honestly, stop making demonstrably untrue claims.
You mean like posting the FTC and Ohio Attorney General website links and other useful consumer advocacy links?

Seriously are you ill or something?
 

Oily Dragon

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Really? You directly misrepresented Ohio law when you wrote, "You can't even use the word "free" freely, in OH, in commercial advertising, without potentially violating the law." What you are implying there is patently untrue. Advertisers can, in fact, use the word "free" it just has to be, you know, actually free; and it's write there in the law you referenced where, in ORC, it says, "It is the express intent of this rule to prohibit the practice of advertising or offering goods or services as "free" when in fact the cost of the "free" offer is passed on to the consumer by raising the regular (base) price of the goods or services that must be purchased in connection with the "free" offer."

The only question is, did you deliberately misrepresent ORC by specifically neglecting to include what it said in order to try to score points or, instead, were you just lazy and didn't read the law in your haste to try to get a 'gotcha' moment? Which was it, A or B?
You seem to really have some problems. Good luck with that.
 

lklawson

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I disagree they've attained that level & will probably be a better brown belt than most at that level. I've seen a brown belt teach at a Club here & he stayed brown belt for years as you said but he was not like the Black belts in the Club. I saw it. It probably depends on the Club, given the answers so far from you & Gerry it sounds like in the USA the standards are very poor. Here in Europe it seems to be higher standards. Also as I mentioned before a Dan grade if teaching or even a brown belt(in a Club say teaching kids) has to Also pass other licences to teach people. Social competence..etc.
I'm not saying all black belts here are top but there's definitely a Set Standard which from your posts are lacking.
Yeah, 'cuz Ringers and "life-long-brown-belts" are a myth. :rolleyes:
 

Oily Dragon

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did you deliberately misrepresent ORC by specifically neglecting to include what it said in order to try to score points or, instead, were you just lazy and didn't read the law in your haste to try to get a 'gotcha' moment? Which was it, A or B?
You seriously need to chill out with this "scoring points" and other false dualities.

Demanding A or B? Wow, grow up.
 

lklawson

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The issue is the standards don't really do a good job of determining who can black belt and who can't.
Closer to "black belts" and other ranks don't really do a good job of determining if a random person meets your definition of a "good martial artist." Your definition of a good martial artist is heavily dependent on your definition of whether or not they can "fight." Which is, as we discussed before, pretty narrowly defined.
 

Oily Dragon

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Closer to "black belts" and other ranks don't really do a good job of determining if a random person meets your definition of a "good martial artist." Your definition of a good martial artist is heavily dependent on your definition of whether or not they can "fight." Which is, as we discussed before, pretty narrowly defined.
If a martial artist has never fought, and can't fight, they are by definition not a martial artist.

That doesn't include all trainers, obviously. Plenty of people are experts on various training methods, but not martial artists themselves.
 
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Jimmythebull

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Oily Dragon

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Yes & a lot of people pretend to be Master Dan Grades online too. Reality is very different to their online persona
it's just weird to me that anybody would have this sort of "lie back and enjoy it" attitude about paying people for MA lessons from anyone.

People have protections. Everything I posted including that bit about "free" in Ohio afversiting was right on point. Including "free" martial arts lessons that turn out to have hidden costs later on.

Is it so hard to understand the difference between quality of goods, and deceptive commercial promises? Maybe some people here have been burned in the past...don't take it out on me. I'm just posting helpful info for people who think they got burned by frauds.
 

Oily Dragon

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I should have posted this days ago rather than wait and assume we were all reasonable people.

Note the law also gives safe harbor to people who don't know their belt is BS

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Rule 109:4-3-10 | Substantiation of claims in advertising.​

Ohio Administrative Code
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109:4
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Chapter 109:4-3 | Deceptive Acts or Trade Practices in Connection with Consumer Transactions
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Effective:
March 14, 2005
Promulgated Under:
119.03
PDF:
Download Authenticated PDF


It shall be a deceptive act or practice in connection with a consumer transaction for a supplier to:
(A) Make any representations, claims, or assertions of fact, whether orally or in writing, which would cause a reasonable consumer to believe such statements are true, unless, at the time such representations, claims, or assertions are made, the supplier possesses or relies upon a reasonable basis in fact such as factual, objective, quantifiable, clinical or scientific data or other competent and reliable evidence which substantiates such representations, claims, or assertions of fact; or
 
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Jimmythebull

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it's just weird to me that anybody would have this sort of "lie back and enjoy it" attitude about paying people for MA lessons from anyone.

People have protections. Everything I posted including that bit about "free" in Ohio afversiting was right on point. Including "free" martial arts lessons that turn out to have hidden costs later on.

Is it so hard to understand the difference between quality of goods, and deceptive commercial promises? Maybe some people here have been burned in the past...don't take it out on me. I'm just posting helpful info for people who think they got burned by frauds.
Yeah I don't understand it either..I mean if I take my car to a Garage and pay I want it fixed properly by qualified people. If I pay for therapy I expect the therapist to be qualified, why anyone would think different about martial arts in beyond me.
 

Oily Dragon

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Yeah I don't understand it either..I mean if I take my car to a Garage and pay I want it fixed properly by qualified people. If I pay for therapy I expect the therapist to be qualified, why anyone would think different about martial arts in beyond me.
I think some people don't see the difference. But you can't take people like George Dillman, Ashida Kim and Frank Dux and claim they are the standard.

They're the exception, which is why we all laugh. Did they take people's money? Sure. Are the ironclad? No way, there are cases out there of outright MA fraud being found out and yes punished in court. For tax fraud, deceptive ads and contracts, and all sorts of things no business consumer should be expected to eat up. There's one big court case I can think of that involved FAKE SHAOLIN FORMS! Ahhaaha.

It can take time and resources, like all things involving the law. Ask Kafka.
 
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Jimmythebull

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I've now watched & practised the below Video. I am now a Sifu of Slapping Gung Fu. Please ring for Private training
 
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