English in the US

[Big Don]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20071214_Ventos_lawyers_question_fairness_of_hearing.html
University of Pennsylvania professor Camille Charles, has decreed that the <strong>"This is America, when ordering, please 'speak English" </strong>sign posted at James Vento's business, Geno's Steaks is akin to Jim Crow.The Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations decided to charge that Vento discriminated against non-English speakers.

You know what? All the founding documents of this country are written in English, all our elected representatives conduct their business in English, this is, primarily an English speaking country.
According to the CIA's World Factbook 82.1% of Americans speak English.

Here's the thing, no thinking person gives a damn if you speak Swahili, Urdu, Farsi, or Pig Latin in your home or among your friends. However, if you choose to do business in this country, even as only a consumer, you should speak and read English fluently. Because that is what we do here. In a country where English is not the main language spoken, France for example, by all means, speak French. But, here, we speak English. To claim that is discriminatory is foolish. I am sure Mr Vento wants everyone's business (that is how businesses make money), however, his employees speak English, so ordering in Spanish, Turkish, or Arabic is not going to get you speedy service, in all likelihood, all that would get you is a frustrated employee asking "Do you speak English" loudly and slowly. We get along with each other better when we all speak the same language,even if our only interaction is to order a sandwich, that is far more easily accomplished if everyone speaks the language of the realm.
In short: don't whine, adapt.
The constant comparison, usually by the left, of every little thing to civil rights is more than a little nausea inspiring.
I live in central California, to be exact, in Sanger, twenty odd miles East of Fresno. When I buy things at the little liquor store around the corner I am impressed that the cashier, who is a Sikh, speaks SEVEN languages, but, being a businessman, he speaks English to his customers. He doesn't try to conduct the business of his shop in Pashtu or Urdu or Punjabi, because the vast majority of his customers don't speak any of those languages.

 

[kuntawguro]

AMEN!!!!! It amazes me when I watch COPS on tv and see how many people they pull over who cannot speak english or even have "ANY" Identification.

 

[bydand]

I agree. While it may seem on the surface a bit harsh, I'll make no apologies. Prime example is the family I have known almost as long as my own, both parents were born in Mexico. They came across legally and worked very hard to gain citizenship here. Spanish was the primary language in the house, but nobody in their family was supposed to speak Spanish outside the house because "We live in the US, we speak English." When I went for overnights from kindergarten on, the family spoke English in the house even, because I didn't speak Spanish. This was all conversation in the house and not just the part directed toward or about me. I tried to get them to teach me Spanish but they wouldn't because they felt it was wrong for me to learn a different language in my own country. Last Aug. on vacation, my family was visiting Ma and Pop Castillo during one of the families special occasions because "you are part of the family, you belong with us." One of the Daughters (mid 50's) said something to Ma C in Spanish and Pop C (has to be pushing 80) came unglued, and reminded her one of the family doesn't speak Spanish so nobody speaks Spanish. She laughed and said that she keeps forgetting I don't understand everything said, because I've been around for so long and really am part of the family. Even though I do understand some, and speak a little, even I am banned from using it around Ma and Pop.

In one generation that is a quaint and outdated concept it seems. Up here it is sometimes the other way around. Many stores here are owned by French speaking families and if you are speaking English, half the older folks have a very hard time understanding what you want. These are people born in the US, raised in the US and have lived here their whole lives. That really burns my shorts for some reason as well.

 

[Kacey]

Some years ago, there was a law proposed in Colorado that all employees of the state must speak and read English at a specified level of proficiency - the stated purpose of the law was to reduce costs, as if all employees could speak and read English at that level, the state would no longer have to print state government notices (worker's compensation, employees' rights, etc.) in Spanish as well as English, which is currently done because of the number of employees who are not conversationally fluent - much less literate - in English. It was badly-misnamed the "English Only" amendment by its opponents (most of them Spanish speakers with varying levels of English proficiency, or members of the Hispanic community). It failed, due more ot the negatively-slanted comments that the uninformed listened to rather than read the proposal themselves than to anything else.

The amount of time, effort, and - yes - money that is spent in this country to ensure that all people have access to information is incredible, and incredibly wasteful. As a teacher in a school with a high percentage of ELL (English Language Learner) students, I would like to differentiate between two groups of students whose primary language is not English: those who immigrated here, and those who were born here. In general (not always, but usually) the students who immigrated here learn English quickly, and are highly motivated to get out of the ELL classes, while those who were born here - in many cases, second, third, even fourth generation Spanish speakers whose parents, grandparents, and other extended family members never learned English beyond a very basic level, if at all - are often unmotivated to learn English, because they see no need to do so. Only when the members of these communities are integrated more fully into the mainstream - which is going to take effort from both within and without the communities in which they live - will there be any incentive for them to learn English at a more proficient level. This is a significant social problem which often gets swept under the rug by generalities and stereotypes about members of certain groups... which is why I differentiate between the most common things I see in the students at my school and the realization that even within a group that size (about 1/3 of the 700 students at my school are ELL students of some level, in primary languages ranging from Spanish to Hmong to Russian) there are still a wide range of differences.

 

[Tez3]

Are you sure you speak English? :rofl:





Sorry, couldn't resist! shoot me down now LOL!

 

[MBuzzy]

Are you sure you speak English? :rofl:





Sorry, couldn't resist! shoot me down now LOL!

At least we don't have a silly accent!

Ok - back to topic.

This is why I like the military, there ARE language requirements. Non-native speakers must pass a language proficiency test before entering the military and before getting certain jobs. I had an airman who was an outstanding performer and wanted to be an officer, but they wouldn't take him because he couldn't pass the language proficiency test.

 

[michaeledward]

This is just a part of the wedge issue that doesn't like brown people.

 

[jks9199]

Two issues... and I'm not even doing more than bumping into what should be done with illegal immigrants.

First...
English as the daily language of business. I do agree; I shouldn't have to order in Spanish to be sure to get what I want at a restaurant. Cops shouldn't have to try to figure out how to ask someone for their driver's license in 80+ languages on the side of the road. (FYI... CDL holders are, by law, supposed to be reasonably fluent in English. If they aren't, cops can get the CDL revoked.) I think you should have to speak English to get a driver's license. While some road signs are uniiversal symbols, many signs -- especially emergency or temporary signs like detour and road closed -- are in English. How the hell is a person who speaks only Japanese or Swahili or Klingon or whatever supposed to know what the sign says? In stores, it pisses me off when the staff is so busy yacking (in any language) with each other that they can't serve me. (I've been known to screw with them... for some reason, people don't look at me and assume I'm reasonably fluent in Spanish. Wanna see some red faces when they realize I probably
understood what they were saying?)

Second issue...
Advocacy groups. I was particularly irked by the slogan of some recent "immigrant rights protests" in this area. "Si se puede." Yes we can. As in, "yes we can stay. Yes, we can work without visas. Yes, we can demand the rights and protections of the law while blatantly violating by our mere presence. Yes, we can speak Spanish and refuse to learn English. And we'll do this all while marching behind the flag of our native country." I personally think that a lot of these advocacy groups foster more dislike and more disagreement than they help. I can't stand most of them. (It's interesting... other groups were fighting just as hard... but providing language classes and helping their clients become competent in US culture.) I just don't get the entitlement idea that so many of these immigrants, legal or illegal, in the US or abroad (recall the riots in France recently? And I know there are problems in England, too.) seem to have. They come into another country, and expect to be able to still do things their way, while gaining all the protections of the new place...

Side issue...
Language as heritage. I don't have (and, actually I encourage!) preserving a language within the family as part of cultural heritage. But that's not the same as refusing to learn the new language.

 

[jks9199]

This is just a part of the wedge issue that doesn't like brown people.

Bullhockey.

The US is a nation of immigrants. Hell, there are plenty of brown people who are native citizens. Sure, most people and cultures have a touch of xenophobia... but that's a far cry from the expecting that people be functionally able to communicate in the dominant language of the nation and culture in which they're living. Sure, tourist areas do cater to visitors, if they're smart. But, I'd be a moron to go to Japan to live, and expect them to cater to me since I don't speak Japanese. I'd be an idiot to go to France, and expect the government to adapt to me. If I'm trying to live in another culture, I should try to acquire enough basics in the language to function; I'm not suggesting true fluency, but I should be able to get the idea of what's going on. And the more I want to function and move in the society, the more of the language I'll need.

Please, explain to me just how exactly I'm discriminating against someone if I dare to expect them to speak the language that I use, and that is the dominant language in the culture and nation.

 

[FearlessFreep]

This is just a part of the wedge issue that doesn't like brown people.

My wife is a 'brown people'. My kids are half 'brown people'. I think the borders should be open to whomever wants to come here. I think the borders should be manned by civil servants handing out social security account numbers to anyone coming in, not armed guards to try to keep the out. But a spanish-english dictionary would be a good idea as well

 

[Bigshadow]

This is just a part of the wedge issue that doesn't like brown people.

Just gotta play that card, huh?

 

[Bigshadow]

If I'm trying to live in another culture, I should try to acquire enough basics in the language to function;

Exactly! It is called assimilate into the primary culture and society of the region!

 

[Bigshadow]

(FYI... CDL holders are, by law, supposed to be reasonably fluent in English. If they aren't, cops can get the CDL revoked.)

FYI, same for a pilot's license. Must be able to read and speak English.

 

[MJS]

IMHO, I think that you should be required and able to speak the language in the country that you're living in. Now, if I took a vacation to France, I don't speak the language, and although I'd be there for a short time, at the least, I'd attempt to get some basics, even if it was from a book or tape. However, I'm not going to learn the full language, if I'm not planning on living there.

I work with a guy whos parents are from Poland. Sure, they all speak Polish, but they know English as well. I know many people who are from other countries, that now live here, and speak English. Nothing says they can't speak their native language, but again, when you move out of that country, you should learn the new language. Personally, I see no discrimination in that.

 

[Omar B]

I never understood people not trying to learn english and integrate. If you go to all the trouble to get to the US, one think you would go the extra couple of steps and learn the language right. It's kind of a self centered world view where you show up somewhere and local custom and language has to conform to you not you to it. I've lived in 4 countries in my lifetime and in all cases if the language was not english I went to the trouble of learning it even though I knew I would not be there for more than a year or so.

I remember once in high school there was a girl whho told me she was going for her drivers license exam over in NJ, I asked her why since we live in NY. She told me that it's because over there they had the written part of the exam in her native Russian. My question is, after you've passed the written test in Russian, do the roadsigns magically change for you so you can see them in Russian?

 

[bydand]

This is just a part of the wedge issue that doesn't like brown people.

Nope, try again.

I have counted as my best friend for almost 40 years someone who you would label a brown person. He is not, he is as close as a brother without sharing the same genes. I call his parents, Ma and pop and have for 40 years (I don't even call my in-laws that.) To me there are really no color issues, just people issues. I don't give a flip if it is a tall, buxom, blond haired, blue eyed beauty from Holland. If she wants to live here, please learn the language. Please follow legal immigration procedures to live here as well. They followed the proper procedures and learned the language before they applied for citizenship. What was good for them, and the millions who have come before (Including all of my ancestors who made the trip to the US for a better life from Ireland, Scotland, and the Netherlands.) They arrived legally and we all speak english (Ooops, sorry Tez, we speak American,) not their native tongues. That is not driving a wedge,. If the ones who do not want to live within our society can't live with that; well then, it is time they go back to the country they still feel attached to and call home.

 

[Big Don]

This is just a part of the wedge issue that doesn't like brown people.

BULL. This has nothing to do with what people look like. My sister's ex-husband came here, legally, from Colombia, and when he came, he came speaking and reading English. Not thirty miles from me is a little town with a large number of Russian immigrants, while the vast majority of them DO speak English, they aren't brown people are they. Your insistence this is about race shows you for the racist you are.

 

[kuntawguro]

If an American goes to Singapore and spits on the sidewalk- ($500 fine) or chews chewing gum (15 lashes with a cane) they cannot expect to be immune from the laws/ customs/ and ideosycncrities of the country they vist. So, if a person wants to come here from planet Melmac and will expect to have intercourse on any table they come accross because that's how it is done on Melmac- they are mistaken. Come to america
do as americans do. If you want to practice your beliefs in private- fine. If you want to have sex on "Your" household tables- fine. But don't expect me to ignore you when you try to do it when visiting MY house.
Sheesh


Immigrants are legal assimilations into our society- illegal immigrants decide to by pass the law- that is why they are illegal! Don't expect me to say- well, that's ok!

 

[Kacey]

I have a friend who was born in this country and is Orthodox Jewish, and it is important to her that her children speak Hebrew - which they do, fluently. The entire family is completely bilingual in English and Hebrew - because it was important to the parents, and they taught their children Hebrew at home, sent them to additional schooling to ensure they were literate as well as able to converse - all while they were speaking English interchangeably with Hebrew at home and within the Jewish Orthodox community in which they live, and solely English when in the company of those who did not speak Hebrew (me, for example; I went to Hebrew school as a child, but it was limited to the liturgical Hebrew needed for my Bat Mitzvah).

I have several students at school whose parents are immigrants, from countries all over the world. They are all learning English as quickly as they can; those who were already literate in their native language generally have an advantage learning to read once they have a certain level of conversational fluency, but they all want to learn - and their parents are right there with them, learning as much as they can, if often not as quickly as their children, who are immersed in English all day at school - along with the fact that all other things being equal, children (the younger the better) generally learn languages more easily than adults.

I have several students at school whose parents - and grandparents - were born in the US, into Hispanic communities. The parents and grandparents speak little, if any, English, and the children resent being told that they must learn English - especially written English - to succeed in school. They don't speak English at home; they don't speak English in the community - in fact, several have told me over the years that their families go out of their way to not speak English if they can possible avoid it, even when it causes them problems. They go out of their way to bring interpreters even when they do speak fluent English, to prove that they have the right to speak Spanish, even when it makes the situation more difficult... and they tend to get really angry at teachers who do speak Spanish, and call their children on rude comments made in Spanish - because they should only get in trouble if the comment is in English; that's why they taught their kids to make their rude comments in Spanish in the first place. In addition, the parents who are least interested in learning English are generally the ones who are the least literate in Spanish as well - leaving their children at a disadvantage when learning English when compared to children whose parents read to them in any language from a young age.

As I said before, this is a societal problem that needs to be dealt with at a societal level - and it is, IMHO, tied into the issue of illegal immigration, if only because such a large percentage of the illegal immigrant population is Hispanic and native Spanish speakers, making that the most visible concern. But I also think that lumping everything into

Originally Posted by michaeledward
This is just a part of the wedge issue that doesn't like brown people.

shows a distinct lack of both understanding of the issues and the multiple cultures involved... something that occurs all too frequently of late, as does the other side, the claim of persecution based solely on cultural background. Yes, the issue exists strongly within certain cultures that claim they want to preserve their identity, but it can be done - but I also think it is due to a lack of acceptance from the larger community; it is easier to covertly accept the lower tax-free wages that illegal immigrants work for while declaiming their presence than to pay for the higher wages of legal immigrants or citizens born in the country, much less pay the higher cost necessary to actually deal with the problem in the first place. Too many people base their opinion on themselves on being better than someone else - and illegal immigrants or other low-socioeconomic minority groups are often who they compare themselves to... but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Just gotta play that card, huh?

Don't feed the trolls.