E Pluribus Unum?

[Flatlander]

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Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Dan Bowman_
-MT Moderator-
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[Cruentus]

Just a few things here...

As everyone thinks I am Silly and stupid and ignorant and a Poopy-head, I have the following to say:

Oh relax, Rich, I don't think your a poopy head for real... you know I was joking. You have some good points and I acknowledged those.

I plead the fifth on the elephant trunk though...

So, because the Supreme court has not done a definition yet, it does not matter. Hmmmm, has the Supreme court defined every word used in legal documents? Nope. I guess I can never make another arguemnet ever again. Shut the Study down now.

Now, now. I didn't say that the issue doesn't matter. It obviously matters to you, and I respect that. I am saying that legal definitions are what makes or breaks something being constitutional or not, not our chosen dictionary definitions. And no, not all words have to be defined by the supreme court, but words in question or words that are pertinent to the law do need to be defined. A good example would be the "gay marriage ban" where the legal definition of the word "marriage" was on the table. And technically with the lawsuits over the amendment, it still is.

Now, you said that you could PROVE that having the word "God" on our currency is a violation of the Bill of rights, but the reality is you can't prove anything until the supreme court decides to define the word as it pertains to the context of being on currency.

That being said, you can still make the arguement that you don't think it should be on there, that is fine. But proving something unconstitutional is another story.

So, I guess we don't have to shut donw the study after all.. :ultracool

The notion that Buddhism doesn't have a "god" is kinda silly, too

Well, not really when you consider Zen Buddhism. They don't confirm or deny "God." But thats another conversation.

1) I've researched a bit more into Freemasonry, and I must now concede that it predates Christianity considerably. At least, that's what Thomas Paine thought.

The Masonic belief is that basically all religions are a spin-off somehow on from their belief system. They take credit for people like Euclid, Plato, and Pythagerous. They believe that Masonic order predates christianity all the way to King Solomon.

However, just because one believes something, that doesn't make it true. There is little evidence to support this belief, especially considering that the records of the first Masons post date christianity by hundreds of years.

Your right about Thomas Paine, and a lot of Masons today follow this belief. That's probably another discussion as well, though.

) As much as I enjoy the veiled sniping being directed at me, I would be interested in knowing where exactly I used personal attacks on anyone (except possibly in the case of MGM, whose arguments-based-on-agenda were plainly obvious).

I know that this probably wasn't directed towards me, but regardless I just wanted to clarify that there is nothing veiled from me here. I was pretty clear, and I wasn't trying to attack you personally, call you names, or anything. All I had said negative was that although I often like what you have to say, I sometimes dislike your method of argueing. Not really an insult, just an opinion. Hey, sometimes I dislike the way I argue too. So I hope there is no ill feelings there.

***
Anyways, I have made my arguements. I think that any more discussion from me would be beating a dead horse at this point, so I'm outta here.

Thanks for the discussion...

Paul

 

[heretic888]

No, no ill feelings.

The Masonic belief is that basically all religions are a spin-off somehow on from their belief system. They take credit for people like Euclid, Plato, and Pythagerous. They believe that Masonic order predates christianity all the way to King Solomon.

However, just because one believes something, that doesn't make it true. There is little evidence to support this belief, especially considering that the records of the first Masons post date christianity by hundreds of years.

Your right about Thomas Paine, and a lot of Masons today follow this belief. That's probably another discussion as well, though.

Kinda like there is little evidence to support the belief there was a Jesus of Nazareth?? :boing2:

Seriously though, there may be some truth to their claims --- but perhaps not the in the form they would like to believe.

If you look back, there is clearly an ongoing "tradition" or "system of thought" of sorts in the ancient world. It predates Christianity, can be seen in the Mystery Schools, the Hermetic tradition, and most definately Pythagoras. However, these traditions themselves trace back to Egypt, which is most likely their beginning origin. I wouldn't put any weight in the King Solomon tales.

Now, it would be uncritical to say that this was some kind of formalized or institutionalized religion or organization, as the Masons seem to believe. Rather, a sort of ongoing line of philosophy that traces through many different currents through the millenia. Masonism as it is today probably developed sometime in the Middle Ages, borrowing heavily from pre-existing Hermetic, Christian, and Gnostic influences.

That's my take, anyway.

 

[Makalakumu]

I look at the occult symbolry on our money and I often wonder why American's know so little about it. I also wonder why it was put there in the first place. I also wonder what would happen if people began to really understand some of the symbolry.

I can tell you one thing for sure, these fundamentalist christians who voted for GWB would absolutely have an apoplexy. I would laugh my *** off as they tried to rationalize it.

There are a lot of lofty ideas expressed on the dollar bill and learning about a few of them can take A LOT of time. For instance meaning of a five pointed star is this...

Imagine a line with three points. A, C, and B. Line AB is certainly longer then the segment AC. At the same time, the segment AC is longer then CB. If the ratio of the length of AC to that of CB is the same as the ratio of AB to AC, then the line has been cut in extreme and mean ratio or in a golden ratio.

Thus any jumbling of numbers will yeild a number close to 1.680339887...

When you draw a pentagram, you are drawing lines with the above ratio. Give it a try...

This number is everywhere on the dollar bill. Count the bricks in the pyramid. Draw a line and compare. Why is this so prevelant? What does it mean for our country?

Novus Ordo Seclorum? E Plurbus Unum?

Are these referring back to this relationship?

upnorthkyosa

ps - Crap, this post is going to have everyone drawing pentagrams. I am definitely going to hell now... :jedi1:

 

[Makalakumu]

There are a lot of lofty ideas expressed on the dollar bill and learning about a few of them can take A LOT of time. For instance meaning of a five pointed star is this...

Imagine a line with three points. A, C, and B. Line AB is certainly longer then the segment AC. At the same time, the segment AC is longer then CB. If the ratio of the length of AC to that of CB is the same as the ratio of AB to AC, then the line has been cut in extreme and mean ratio or in a golden ratio.

Thus any jumbling of numbers will yeild a number close to 1.680339887...

When you draw a pentagram, you are drawing lines with the above ratio. Give it a try...

I want to note that pentagrams have lots of other meanings other then the one expressed above. I think it is more correct to say that this probably was the original meaning...

 

[heretic888]

My guess is that the symbolism was chosen because many of the Founding Fathers --- George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine at the very least --- were either familiar with Masonism or were Masons themselves. Thomas Jefferson is a very likely candidate, as well.

When I looked up the Great Seal in the World Book Encyclopedia, it also said that the reverse side was designed by an expert in "heraldry".

As for the pentagram itself, it has a lot of meanings --- some of which are political, some of which are spiritual, and some of which overlap. It all traces back the sacred geometry elucidated by Pythagoras, who himself acquired the knowledge from his studies in Egypt.

Laterz. :asian:

 

[MGM]

Just one correction, I thought we were all on the same page but it appears not.

A US two cent coin had "in god we trust" minted in the 1860's. In the early 1900's that coin was re-minted omitting the slogan, a year or so later congress passed legislation that required th slogan be put back on any money that previously had it. All US money did not start carrying "in god we trust" until after 1957. That was as a result of 1955 legislation. Can any one say fear of the "Commies"?

 

[heretic888]

Very interesting, MGM.

Not that I don't believe you, but could provide sources for corroboration??

 

[Flatlander]

Just one correction, I thought we were all on the same page but it appears not.

A US two cent coin had "in god we trust" minted in the 1860's. In the early 1900's that coin was re-minted omitting the slogan, a year or so later congress passed legislation that required th slogan be put back on any money that previously had it. All US money did not start carrying "in god we trust" until after 1957. That was as a result of 1955 legislation. Can any one say fear of the "Commies"?

In fact, I am looking at a 1941 US 50 cent piece from my collection which does have "IN GOD WE TRUST" on it.