Drunk Driving Laws...

[Tgace]

Well...thats what the legal process of our country is supposed to address. Our elected leaders make law, dont like them dont re-elect them. Fight the law in court and make case law. There is really no other way to take care of the problem...

 

[Tgace]

"So, what is happening is that stricter laws are passed on certian behaviors that may be "frowned upon" to restrict my rights. "

One could say that that is the basis of almost any law.

 

[loki09789]

"So, what is happening is that stricter laws are passed on certian behaviors that may be "frowned upon" to restrict my rights. "

One could say that that is the basis of almost any law.

The perception is whether you view politics as synonimous with corruption, personal power play, back stabbing or as synonimous with service to the public.

Generally speaking, the connotation in most casual discussions is the first.

 

[Cruentus]

Well...thats what the legal process of our country is supposed to address. Out elected leaders make law, dont like them dont re-elect them. Fight the law in court and make case law. There is really no other way to take care of the problem...

That and counter-legislation.

If we all do our little part (voting, writting letters, publishing, campaigning, or whatever), then maybe the world will be a better place. :boing1:

 

[loki09789]

I agree with you there, brutha. If someone is driving in a manner that endangers others, then they should get penalized for it.

The problem I am having is that people are often penalized for things that I don't feel endanger other motorists. I think the majority of the public can drive at 0.08 without endangering other motorists, and the research supports this fact. So what gives?

What gives is that our civil liberities and rights are further restricted each year for political reasons, and if we don't discontinue this trend, then we will find ourselves in a position where we have no rights at all.

The endangering of other citizens can be measured in the reported, compiled number of DWI/DUI arrests in the nation over a period of x amount of time. If the observable trend is that the overall number of instances is on the uprise, the enforcement as deterrant is loosing its kick. I don't know if this is what the change is being based on, but in order to get this law passed some reasonable presentation of rationale had to be put forth - not just politics/corruption business as usual.

The fact, or observable data, is that the study was done. The observation in the study is purely a supported hypothesis. There are just as many studies out there that will counter this one. Whether any case study or report is factual doesn't have any bearing on it's validity under scrutiny. This study does not address the other variables that I previously mentioned as affecting alcohol tolerance and impairment.

As far as it not seemingly being an endangerment. .08 BAC tested could be either on the uprise because you just left the bar, or on the downslide because you sat for a while before you left. The LEO on the scene can only test to any accuracy your state of impairment and alcohol level in that instance, not whether it is going up or down.

I really don't care what the BAC level, drinking and driving is irresponsible as a practice. The laws are an attempt to encourage the elimination of the practice in the end. I agree with that end. I wouldn't tell my son that you have a higher tolerance to fatigue so you, individually are allowed to wave this sword around how ever you want after being up all day and all night, but the rest my children can't. The practice is not safe.

I wouldn't call any DWI/DUI laws as infringement on civil liberties as much as the responsibility of the governement to promote responsible behavior on this issue. Since it is less efficient to give all the good drivers gold star token rewards, the negative reinforcement of capitulation motivated by avoiding the consequences is what is normally used until the society adopts the motivation of personal responsibility -sometimes it never gets ingrained.

Can't arrest folks for stupidity, but can arrest them for stupidity in action. Driving and drinking is stupid.

 

[Cruentus]

So, Paul M., you sound like you basically support a drive towards 0 tolerance?
:asian:

 

[loki09789]

So, Paul M., you sound like you basically support a drive towards 0 tolerance?
:asian:

That would be a yes.

I am not talking about alcohol prohibition or demonizing drinking. I am talking about holding people accountable for their actions. Look at the DWI laws in other countries and how harsh they are. We don't even come close. Basically the message is "hey, party, socialize and drink - but don't be stupid and climb behind the wheel"

These euro countries also have no designated drinking age, so they could be seen as contradicting themselves on this issue or they could be seen as sending the message that you are free to do this and that but you will pay if your behavior endangers others.

 

[Tgace]

Ground Rule: If you are asking yourself "I wonder if I had too much?" You probably have.

 

[Cruentus]

That would be a yes.

I am not talking about alcohol prohibition or demonizing drinking. I am talking about holding people accountable for their actions. Look at the DWI laws in other countries and how harsh they are. We don't even come close. Basically the message is "hey, party, socialize and drink - but don't be stupid and climb behind the wheel"

These euro countries also have no designated drinking age, so they could be seen as contradicting themselves on this issue or they could be seen as sending the message that you are free to do this and that but you will pay if your behavior endangers others.

Fair enough. I will say that since the new law, I more fequently hand my keys to someone who has had a lot less or none at all. The big reason isn't because I am inhibited, though. The reason is because I have to drink copius amounts of alcahol before I "feel" anything, meaning it is impossible for me to gage by feeling if I am 0.05, 0.08, or 0.12. Some would say that this is good. I say not, because if I could "feel" the alcahol, then I wouldn't drive at all. I just feel it should be my right to drink and get behind the wheel as long as I am not inhibited.

I know many will disagree, though. So, I respect your support for 0 tolerance, even if I don't agree! :asian:

 

[loki09789]

Fair enough. I will say that since the new law, I more fequently hand my keys to someone who has had a lot less or none at all. The big reason isn't because I am inhibited, though. The reason is because I have to drink copius amounts of alcahol before I "feel" anything, meaning it is impossible for me to gage by feeling if I am 0.05, 0.08, or 0.12. Some would say that this is good. I say not, because if I could "feel" the alcahol, then I wouldn't drive at all. I just feel it should be my right to drink and get behind the wheel as long as I am not inhibited.

I know many will disagree, though. So, I respect your support for 0 tolerance, even if I don't agree! :asian:

Well, much like fatigue will create a state of 'sleep' by clinical definition that the subject can't consciously 'feel' but will create zoning and microsleep where you blink and 'wake up' because in that short time - literally a second or less - you have experienced an altered state of mind, alcohol can create states of impairment that have very little to do with the conscious 'feel' for the subject.... I think even those who do these studies that split hairs over .08 or .10 will say that the practice in general is a demonstration of irresponsible operation of a machine.

 

[OULobo]

I hope you guys don't mind my jumping in this thread and having to catch up, but it seem like interesting discussion.

I wanted to mention that I didn't think that cell phone / seatbelt comparison was very accurate in that neither of these things are active arrest issues (atleast locally here). You only get charged for these things if you are pulled over for some other issue and the officer observes these actions after the stop.

As for politics in OVI arrests, here in my town the police have quite the rep for enforcing OVI laws. The department hasn't shied away from high profile cases and to some extent it shows that the city is on the straight and narrow. This definitly allows local politicians a bonus when they show their track records against crime.

On the subject of actual charges of OVI here; the officer can pull you over for any action that he feels shows that you have a questionable ability to drive safely, but those calls must be justified. I actually had an officer tell me that he had a case thrown out because he pulled over a guy who was swerving within his lane and refused a breathalyzer and feild sobriety test. The man paid a price for refusing, but because he never left the lane and there was no proof of alcohol the OVI was dropped. No charges. The penalty for refusing the breathalyzer was 1 yr. license administrative suspension, but there was nothing on his record and no notification to the insurance companies.

On some quick secondary topics.

Has anyone read about the situation, in VA I believe, where a local police chief decided to make a statement about drinking, so he took a few officers, went into a local bar and arrested everyone that was shown by a breathalyzer to be intoxicated. The charge was public intox. If this isn't an example of a witch hunt / demonization of people who choose to use alcohol, I don't know what is. Sadly I wasn't able to find out if any convictions were handed out.

How about "scarlett letter" plates? Ohio recently instated a law making it mandatory for OVI offenders to have bright yellow with orange lettering plates after your first offense, with no leeway given to the judges discression. I'm sure Ester Pryne would be proud.

Sorry for posting these all late and at once but I figured they related atleast a little bit.

 

[loki09789]

I understand DWI/DUI acronyms, but what does OVI stand for specifically?

I have said that I am for the philosophical shift to a zero tolerance of drinking and driving, just not a smart practice, but the licensing thing and the public drunkenness thing, do you know what the intention is? What is the desired social impact? I thought branding of villains was considered wrong in this day and age.

Hester would have hated the license plates though, she was doing it for LOOOOVEEEEEE , not a bottle of JD

 

[Tgace]

Here in NY seat-belts and cell phones are PC for a traffic stop.

The VA bar crashing stunt was ill advised in my opinion. Im not aware of the details but I would think that business and "City Hall" pressure would have been applied to rein that @#$% in.

The issue of officers having to use some sort of "impaired standard" was a point I was trying to make here. The debate is that lowering BAC will "jam up" people who are not really impaired at those levels. Im saying that in order to get to HQ for the Datamaster, the subject typically must have shown some motor impairment (driving ability, accident, field testing etc.) to have gotten that far in the first place. Even at roadblocks an officer will ask if you have been drinking, maybe give you an alcosensor etc. If he believes you are impaired he will give you some field tests. Fail those and you are off to the station. Smell a little like booze and blow a .08 on the sensor but pass the tests, not be slurred, stumbling, and glassy eyed and you will probably drive away. The BAC issue nets more people who show physical impairment even though their BAC is below the limit.

 

[OULobo]

OVI is the recent Ohio evolution of DUI/DWI. It stands for Operating a Vehicle while Influenced. the change was made because OH has reinstated the differance between actually driving the vehicle and just being behind the wheel or in the car. This allows for separate and more fair punishments for people who get drunk and can't get home, so decide to sleep it off in the car. They show more responsibility by not driving.

Interesting side note, that here in OH if you are driving on private property you 1) Don't need a license and 2) Can be drive as intoxicated as you please (although it isn't advisable). Traffic laws are only applicable on public streets and property. This also means that the painted "restricted" areas in parking areas of the mall, store, ect. are just suggestions and are not enforceable by the police, however, fire lanes are a heath and safety issue and so are still enforcable.

Loki

The intent of the things I mentioned earlier:

-bar arrest- the police cheif wanted to let everyone know that drinking to drunkeness in his city was a crime (arguable) and even made a statement that as long as the law was on the books he would continue to arrest people in bars out of bars and in any other public venue.

-licence plate- the argument here is that the plates will both become a deterant by basically labeling the offender to neibors and friends, and that it will identify the offender as a safety risk to those that are around him on the road. I think that the amount of stress/chaos that this will cause if people actually try actively to avoid the "red plates" will be worse than just letting them blend back into the public. There is a reason why some classic literature is still required reading in public schools, because there is a lesson to be learned. It looks to me that some people skipped the Hawthorn part of the semester. Branding villans is become en vogue again, just look at the treatment of sex offenders.

 

[loki09789]

OVI is the recent Ohio evolution of DUI/DWI. It stands for Operating a Vehicle while Influenced. the change was made because OH has reinstated the differance between actually driving the vehicle and just being behind the wheel or in the car. This allows for separate and more fair punishments for people who get drunk and can't get home, so decide to sleep it off in the car. They show more responsibility by not driving.

Interesting side note, that here in OH if you are driving on private property you 1) Don't need a license and 2) Can be drive as intoxicated as you please (although it isn't advisable). Traffic laws are only applicable on public streets and property. This also means that the painted "restricted" areas in parking areas of the mall, store, ect. are just suggestions and are not enforceable by the police, however, fire lanes are a heath and safety issue and so are still enforcable.

Loki

The intent of the things I mentioned earlier:

-bar arrest- the police cheif wanted to let everyone know that drinking to drunkeness in his city was a crime (arguable) and even made a statement that as long as the law was on the books he would continue to arrest people in bars out of bars and in any other public venue.

-licence plate- the argument here is that the plates will both become a deterant by basically labeling the offender to neibors and friends, and that it will identify the offender as a safety risk to those that are around him on the road. I think that the amount of stress/chaos that this will cause if people actually try actively to avoid the "red plates" will be worse than just letting them blend back into the public. There is a reason why some classic literature is still required reading in public schools, because there is a lesson to be learned. It looks to me that some people skipped the Hawthorn part of the semester. Branding villans is become en vogue again, just look at the treatment of sex offenders.

On the issue of sex offenders, I am split on that one. I recognize the problem with 'time served' and all that, but with a child of my own, I am comforted because I am at least partially informed of things like this. I don't know if there are case studies, stats that help support the effectiveness of the practice or if it is just a nice political(as in band aid cure) hug to make those potential voters feel good.

 

[Tgace]

Interesting side note, that here in OH if you are driving on private property you 1) Don't need a license and 2) Can be drive as intoxicated as you please (although it isn't advisable). Traffic laws are only applicable on public streets and property. This also means that the painted "restricted" areas in parking areas of the mall, store, ect. are just suggestions and are not enforceable by the police, however, fire lanes are a heath and safety issue and so are still enforcable.

Pretty much the same here in NY. You dont need a license to buy,insure or register a vehicle..only need it to drive on the public streets.

As to the parking lot issue...dont forget handicap parking enforcement.

 

[Cryozombie]

Im just curious why you can operate a boat, Jetski, or other watercraft while intoxicated, but not a car?

I think that OVERALL "the state" (and by state I mean our government) sets standards based on... well... whatever the hell they want and it becomes law.

If my Birthday is Sep 12, Why is it on Sept 11, the day before my 21st birthday I cannot drink? Overnight some magic "change" is going to come over my demeanor and I am going to be "responsible enough".

Likewise, if I am 17, and my girlfriend is 17, and we are having Consensual sex, and I turn 18 and do so, I am suddenly a rapist! What happened overnight to change me into a "responsible adult" while she stayed a "child"?

Why is it, with a BAC of .08 at 250lbs, I am unsfe to drive, but some 90lb dude with a BAC less than me is ok, even tho he may be more impared?

2-3 beers will put me over the .08 limit, I am told, yet, I can drink 6 or 7 beers, before I start to feel a "buzz" and I have passed a "sobriety" test administered by a police officer who's house I was drinking at before she let me leave on that many beers... But heaven forbid the state take into account my body type and tolerance... Its an arbitraty number.

Now, that said, I dont think drunks belong on the road, and many is the night that I slept in my office (The bar we drink at is 3 doors down from our office) or paid the 20 bucks to go home in a cab... But I belive the determination of "Intoxicated" cannot really come from a stupid piece of technology that simply "measures" somthing against an "arbitrary number" assigned by some panel of persons... Especially when that number has been "Paid For" by special interest groups.

Ask yourself how many 250lbs + guys you have seen who are solid muscle, that if you only took into account what the scale said would be "obese" by the health industry standards...

 

[loki09789]

Im just curious why you can operate a boat, Jetski, or other watercraft while intoxicated, but not a car?

I think that OVERALL "the state" (and by state I mean our government) sets standards based on... well... whatever the hell they want and it becomes law.

If my Birthday is Sep 12, Why is it on Sept 11, the day before my 21st birthday I cannot drink? Overnight some magic "change" is going to come over my demeanor and I am going to be "responsible enough".

Likewise, if I am 17, and my girlfriend is 17, and we are having Consensual sex, and I turn 18 and do so, I am suddenly a rapist! What happened overnight to change me into a "responsible adult" while she stayed a "child"?

Why is it, with a BAC of .08 at 250lbs, I am unsfe to drive, but some 90lb dude with a BAC less than me is ok, even tho he may be more impared?

2-3 beers will put me over the .08 limit, I am told, yet, I can drink 6 or 7 beers, before I start to feel a "buzz" and I have passed a "sobriety" test administered by a police officer who's house I was drinking at before she let me leave on that many beers... But heaven forbid the state take into account my body type and tolerance... Its an arbitraty number.

Now, that said, I dont think drunks belong on the road, and many is the night that I slept in my office (The bar we drink at is 3 doors down from our office) or paid the 20 bucks to go home in a cab... But I belive the determination of "Intoxicated" cannot really come from a stupid piece of technology that simply "measures" somthing against an "arbitrary number" assigned by some panel of persons... Especially when that number has been "Paid For" by special interest groups.

Ask yourself how many 250lbs + guys you have seen who are solid muscle, that if you only took into account what the scale said would be "obese" by the health industry standards...

As far as statutory rape, there are age difference conditions here in NY, don't remember the exacts but it isn't as simple as 17 dating 18 is illegal. I imagine each state has similiar conditions.

There are two separate laws in the works here, read back and TGACE and OOLOBa make that clearer than I do. One is Impairment and the other is the Driving while intoxicated or Under the Influence. You can be charged with one or both depending on the state/circumstances.

You can be charged for operating any motor watercraft if you are impaired/DWI. Here around Lake Erie, the Sheriff, State police and Coasties have posts and boats that can patrol for just that in the high season.... does it get as well enforced? Probably not, but it is not ignored by the law, at least in NY.

 

[edhead2000]

There is no conclusive evidence that driving with alc[o]hol in your system (but under a limit that would make you impaired) is a danger to yourself or other motorists.

Paul, I'm curious what databases you used to search the literature and what your search parameters were on this topic. I'd like to read some of the articles you discovered. Thanks!

Erin

 

[OULobo]

Im just curious why you can operate a boat, Jetski, or other watercraft while intoxicated, but not a car?

OH has laws against operating any vehicle while intoxicated. They are enforced fairly well around here because the Coast Guard guys get bored and go hunting on nice days.

I think that OVERALL "the state" (and by state I mean our government) sets standards based on... well... whatever the hell they want and it becomes law.

To some extent I totally agree. Look at the current indecency laws that are such a hot topic on the hill. Yet I have yet to meet one person in my daily travels that sees a problem with indecency. Sometimes there are definitly bills and laws getting passede that have little or no public support, only some bureacrat's personal agenda.

If my Birthday is Sep 12, Why is it on Sept 11, the day before my 21st birthday I cannot drink? Overnight some magic "change" is going to come over my demeanor and I am going to be "responsible enough".

You're right, I agree we should abolish drinking age limits. Few european countries have limits and they don't experience major issues.

Likewise, if I am 17, and my girlfriend is 17, and we are having Consensual sex, and I turn 18 and do so, I am suddenly a rapist! What happened overnight to change me into a "responsible adult" while she stayed a "child"?

Here in OH the law allows a 4 year interface before statuatory rape charges are applicable. So if the minor is 17, the elder can be up to 21 before the courts can look at charges.

Why is it, with a BAC of .08 at 250lbs, I am unsfe to drive, but some 90lb dude with a BAC less than me is ok, even tho he may be more impared?

2-3 beers will put me over the .08 limit, I am told, yet, I can drink 6 or 7 beers, before I start to feel a "buzz" and I have passed a "sobriety" test administered by a police officer who's house I was drinking at before she let me leave on that many beers... But heaven forbid the state take into account my body type and tolerance... Its an arbitraty number.

Now, that said, I dont think drunks belong on the road, and many is the night that I slept in my office (The bar we drink at is 3 doors down from our office) or paid the 20 bucks to go home in a cab... But I belive the determination of "Intoxicated" cannot really come from a stupid piece of technology that simply "measures" somthing against an "arbitrary number" assigned by some panel of persons... Especially when that number has been "Paid For" by special interest groups.

Ask yourself how many 250lbs + guys you have seen who are solid muscle, that if you only took into account what the scale said would be "obese" by the health industry standards...

Although tolerance is an issue with BAC, weight and frame are usually naturally taken into account with measuring BAC. For example the 90lb guy can only drink, lets say 2 beers before he reaches .08, but because he is larger and has more body to distribute the alcohol to the 250lb guy can prolly take 5 beers to reach the same level of .08. This obviously isn't the best type of example because either person could be more tolerant to the negative positive reactions to alcohol due to frequent drinking, drug interaction, even genetics, but in terms of weight and frame the trend is pretty reliable. I think the biggest issue is that there is no BAC level that correlates to imparment of senses or function for all people, but I guess it's the best they can do when the people want both drunks off the road and a hard evidence way of proving they are drunk.