Drugs in the dojo

[deadhand31]

I've had a personal experience with this, and I'm looking to find other's thoughts on this.

If a student who is at an assistant instructor rank is a drug user, should they be given a chance to clean up, or kicked out? What if they don't improve after their chance to clean up?


I feel that if a student, especially at the assistant instructor level is a drug user, they should get a chance to clean up. However, if they don't, and they can't represent the school's outward beliefs on the subject, that they should not be allowed to participate or teach.

I feel that a black belt is supposed to be a model for all other students. I want to be able to look at any of our school's black belts, and say "I would like to be like him. I am proud to call him a fellow student." However, if they're a drug user, that's not something I can say.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

[theneuhauser]

one top student was caught with a large quantity of narcotics on him at the studio (no doubt for sale). he was immediately asked to leave. i agree with that.

any member of a school that is discovered to have a drug problem should be treated like a close family member. that person has a problem and should be encouraged by everyone to get help. not sent away, especially if the only person that is being hurt is themself.

 

[chufeng]

If the offender is a "first-time" offender (that is, first time caught), then I would give him ONE chance...and I'd let him/her know that the school/club (I) would stand behind him/her 100% if he/she sought rehab...

However, if the person involved failed rehab, I'd ask him/her to surrender the rank and move back to (in our system) brown belt (the person involved may choose to,leave the system voluntarily at that point)...all teaching responsibilities would be suspended...if the problem persisted, I would ask the individual to leave with the stipulation that he/she could return after a successful rehab...

If the same individual showed, up after a time, and had cleaned up...I would allow him/her back into the club...he/she would be on a probationary status for one year...if successful during that time, without relapse, rank lost would be reinstated...and part of the person's teaching responsibilities would be to share HOW he/she overcame the problem.

A VERY tough question...
On the one hand, you want the BEST instructors/associate instructors...on the other, you want to support those who have worked so hard to get where they are...But, the individual MUST realize that the problem is a PERSONAL responsibility...you will support any effort to get clean...but won't tolerate that kind of behavior in the club/school.

Dealers are OUT...PERIOD....

Thanks for asking this one...I had to puzzle on it a bit...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[sweeper]

I would say if ti doesn't show up in class, as in the person isn't intoxicated and doens't take anything to class than treat it like if a freind was using drugs, I don't think there should be any punishjment unless it comes to class, and than it should be delt with based on the symptoms. Sp if they are disrupting class I would probably want them suspended or kicked out, if they weren't but were lacking in ability than they shouldn't progress (and if their teaching is sufforing they should stop teaching, if their rank requires teaching they should be demoted to a rank that does not.). And yes it should be made clear to them that the school and it's teachers would help them anyway posable. If they are bringing drugs to school or are activly using drug at school than I would suggest a suspention, if they come to class intoxicated than I would suggest suspension, if they intend to sell it than they should be out. End of story. In my opinion there is a BIG diffrence between a drug user and a drug dealer.

 

[chufeng]

So what you're saying is, that you don't CARE if your friends use drugs???

Your friendship stands in the way of you trying to intervene on his/her behalf???

Rather they use and be happy with you than you confront and attempt to SAVE them from their sickness???


I'm sure I'm reading your post wrong, but it sounds as if you don't care as long as class isn't disrupted....


chufeng

 

[GouRonin]

What a person does outside of class is not your concern. As long as it does not affect the class or the school. I bet there are people that use drugs (Alcohol is a drug you know) and you have no clue. When you start forcing people to act and behave like you feel they should then it's a cult issue. This isn't McCarthyism. You're not their parents.

Sure I care if my friends do drugs. If they do that's their business. I make sure I don't put myself in a position that it will affect me.

There is such a thing as personal responsibility. It's not up to you to save them. Did they ask you to? Why do you assume they need it?

There are many levels of drug use. What are you going to do? Start testing urine samples of the students?

Sure you can offer help. But if it's not making things in class bad and it's not affecting the school then really it's not an issue for the school.

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by chufeng

So what you're saying is, that you don't CARE if your friends use drugs???

Your friendship stands in the way of you trying to intervene on his/her behalf???

Rather they use and be happy with you than you confront and attempt to SAVE them from their sickness???


I'm sure I'm reading your post wrong, but it sounds as if you don't care as long as class isn't disrupted....


chufeng

Chufeng i think you make a darn good point here. Yes, we can say that in most dojo's that proper measures of some sort to wake the instructor/asst. instructor etc, too the realities of life as a responsible martial arts practioner, intsructor and mentor is end result. Yet, the horrible truth in the practice of martial arts whether, kung fu or karate is the their are many practicing alcoholic and drug addicted teachers, instructors, and masters, to add to this touchy undiscussed dilema. The Teachers, get their most trusted students high to teach them their personal style or some intricate part of their style. Many students train drunk and stoned beyond mental and physical ability. The students whom train in this manner which i have talked with feel that it is a sort of a right of passage into a selected elite group of practitioners. Their teachers a very well trained and well skilled in their respective styles. These so called chosen few are the new sifu, sensei, teacher inheritors of their Teacher's Style/s and founders of new styles etc,...! Some will change after they get their respective ranking and others will become addicted and never recover from the physical and mental damage. Remember, here that usually, these students are not the dojo students which train only on the assigned training days. These students are usually the ones which spend the most time with their instructor, learning new skills, techniques, special skills, and techniques which the teacher does not teach the other students in class. For this knowledge, the teacher makes them pay a rather extreme price. I can talk from experience in this area because i used to be one of those chosen few students!
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[chufeng]

Gou,

A teacher has a HUGE responsibility to his students...

The question wasn't whether a new guy off of the street is doing drugs...quite frankly, I'd bet 40% of the "new guys" are doing something...that is where our teaching can help set them straight...but the situation referenced in this discussion was about a junior black belt...if you've still got problems at that level, then YOU haven't done your job...period.

It isn't about how smooth class runs...
The senior students are family...
If you see them as a way to further your business, OhWell...don't expect any referrals from me...

NO, I don't expect everyone to pee in a cup...
No, I don't intend on patting people down as they come through the door...and No, I won't search people's lockers...BUT, if a problem surfaces and I IGNORE it...I may be helping to KILL the person I rely on to pass on the system....and it just ain't right.

Chiduce...I hear you...Peace brother.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Danny]

Well said chufeng.

 

[chufeng]

Gou,

...and if you reread the original post...PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY was mentioned...

There is NOTHING in the post that suggests Big Brother tactics...

The original question referred to the assistant instructor with a KNOWN drug use problem....I think the post makes it clear that the responsibility lies with the user...but to suggest that, as long as the user can still teach effectively, it's not the school's business is ludicrous...

I'm sorry...I've read many of your posts and agree with some and disagree with some...on this one, I think a strong statement needed to be made...IMHO.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[girlychuks]

I know deadhand personally- and I know this situation personally as well.

First off- I would like to state that I believe he goes to an EXCELLENT studio- I have met his instructors and seen his school in action, as well as having the pleasure to spar some of their students. They run a darn tight ship in there and I admire their art and instruction.

That said, I think this instructor should have been kicked out LONG ago. Private drug use is one thing- l am for personal responsibility and am against drug testing.

However, this individual was soliciting and discussing drug use among junior members, including a relative of mine. IN THE STUDIO . In my eyes, this is unforgivable. Kids need a safe place to develop their character and be free from bad inlfluence- the dojo should be one of these places. Safe places are SO SO hard to find these days.

Deadhand, sweetness, I admire you for wanting to do something about this. I understand how upset you are and how conflicted you are- you always want to give your upper ranks the benefit of the doubt. But I think it is getting to the point where this person is hurting others and it needs to be addressed.

Think of the head instructor and how hard he has worked to make a good studio- the sad fact is that one of his trusted helpers is sabotaging his best efforts- and is betrayal not the utter death of a true martial artist??

Yours in Honor, Girlychuks

 

[fissure]

Wow!! When I first saw this thread, I assumed that it refered to performance inhancing drugs(which shouold not be allowed!).I find it hard to understand how any instructor could possibly allow a drug using student or (shaking with anger as I write the word) instructor in their dogang/dojo.To knowinglly place children in this person's presence is criminall

 

[deadhand31]

O-k... time to clear up some misconceptions......

1st, there was no solicitation or talk of drugs INSIDE the dojang. The person in question did talk to my little sis, a lower belt, about how they liked pot and how they wanted to get ahold of ecstasy. This was done outside of the school, but I still don't think there was ever an excuse for it.

2nd, I was hoping that I could get thoughts on the subject, not this scenario specifically. I don't want to do anything that might cause trouble within my school.

Next, I am the only one in my school who knows about the extremes that this person has taken, and their views on drugs, and they can be quoted as saying "Any reason is a good reason to do drugs." I find this is a terrible influence to have around kids, whether the situation is brought up or not. I did notify our instructor on the fact that she had a problem, and this person was given a chance to clean up. However, this person has flaunted thier chance, and decided that cleaning up is stupid. My instructor is unaware of this, and I am thinking that I might have to bring it to his attention once more.

Finally, my main concern is not with the assistant instructor. They had totally lost my respect a very long time ago, and may never get it back. My main concern is with the kids being taught, and what would happen if this person was busted. We have alot of fine young children who have benefitted greatly from our school's instruction, and if this weak-link would get busted, I know that the parents would be yanking their kids out left and right. If I were a parent, I would want my kid to be taught by people who mean what they teach when they say that they discourage the use of anything that would inhibit mental growth (it's in our student's creed).

That said, please don't judge my school solely based upon the behavior of one bad apple.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by chufeng
A teacher has a HUGE responsibility to his students...

I agree. But that doesn't extend into their personal life. If the student asks you into their life then fine. Don't push your way in.

Originally posted by chufeng
The question wasn't whether a new guy off of the street is doing drugs...quite frankly, I'd bet 40% of the "new guys" are doing something...that is where our teaching can help set them straight...but the situation referenced in this discussion was about a junior black belt...if you've still got problems at that level, then YOU haven't done your job...period.

I thought your job was to teach them a martial art. I wasn't aware that you were teaching a way of life that people had to conform to.

Originally posted by chufeng
It isn't about how smooth class runs...
The senior students are family...
If you see them as a way to further your business, OhWell...don't expect any referrals from me...

I won't be asking for referrals. Family is family. My family isn't run like yours. It would depend on the family. If the person isn't killing people in his spare time or peddling drugs or doesn't come into the school under the influence and otherwise isn't affecting the school all you can do is to offer help. To force it on someone by kicking them out etc isn't going to do anything but salve your conscience.

Originally posted by chufeng
NO, I don't expect everyone to pee in a cup...
No, I don't intend on patting people down as they come through the door...and No, I won't search people's lockers...BUT, if a problem surfaces and I IGNORE it...I may be helping to KILL the person I rely on to pass on the system....and it just ain't right.

You said the main phrase, "If a problem surfaces." When it's a problem you deal with it. If you see something but it isn't a problem with the school, you offer help. You don't force it on someone. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I'm not asking you to agree with me and I can respect that you have your own opinion. I just don't agree with you. Well that's not true. I semi-agree with some of what you say but just not as deeply as you do I suppose.

We had this guy who tried selling to kids at the boxing club inthe freakin' stairway. Coach sent some guys down to "talk" with him. He left and never came back.

If he's selling to the students inside the studio then the guy needs a beating. If you're soliciting to them outside the studio the guy needs to be told to leave and not come back. Possible beating might ensure because you just want to. If the guy is doing things in his off time, it's not affecting anyone then it's no one's business.

My 2 cents.

 

[girlychuks]

Originally posted by deadhand31

O-k... time to clear up some misconceptions......

1st, there was no solicitation or talk of drugs INSIDE the dojang. The person in question did talk to my little sis, a lower belt, about how they liked pot and how they wanted to get ahold of ecstasy. This was done outside of the school, but I still don't think there was ever an excuse for it.

2nd, I was hoping that I could get thoughts on the subject, not this scenario specifically. I don't want to do anything that might cause trouble within my school.

Sorrysorrysorry. Didn't mean to shake it up, or point out your school specifically- this is why I kept all the details rather VAGUE.

You are just going to have to beat up onyour loudmouth little sis next time you see her.


And no one here is judging your school either. If i lived closer I would definitley study at your school.

*steps away from can of worms*

apologies:asian:

 

[deadhand31]

Well, Gou, I can understand where you're coming from. But I feel that when you tie a black belt around your waist, you have a heavy burden. I believe you should make sure that you're a person that would qualify as a role model. If you're a drug user, it's just like pulling an Iverson, letting people who look up to you down by your irresponsible behavior.

I do believe that there has to at least be a generalized guideline for the life that a person is to live. Such as no lawbreaking, no illegal drugs, and no using your art outside the school unless you're forced to. I really don't think asking that of a student is unreasonable.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by deadhand31
Well, Gou, I can understand where you're coming from. But I feel that when you tie a black belt around your waist, you have a heavy burden. I believe you should make sure that you're a person that would qualify as a role model. If you're a drug user, it's just like pulling an Iverson, letting people who look up to you down by your irresponsible behavior.
I do believe that there has to at least be a generalized guideline for the life that a person is to live. Such as no lawbreaking, no illegal drugs, and no using your art outside the school unless you're forced to. I really don't think asking that of a student is unreasonable.

I can see the not breaking the law thing. Maybe a few others but just because someone does an art doesn't mean they should be a role model. People often say athlete's should be role models? Why? because they play a sport? Charles Barkley said it best. "I play basketball. That's my job. It's the job of a parent to be a role model for their kids. Not me."

I agree that there are general guidlines that should be followed. But too much is just being controlling and intrusive. Don't expect too much from people. When you put them on a pedestal it just makes it that much more distance to fall when mistakes are made. We're all human and eventually we all make mistakes. Don't set people up for failure with unreasonable expectations.

Having said that. If the guy is pushing drugs AT the school or even to students away from the school. Lay a beating on him or warn him once then beat his @ss.

 

[RCastillo]

Drugs have no business in our area. When I was coaching High School football, I saw the same thing, and it ruined the teams chances of going anywhere.

Drugs are rampent, as are anabolic steroids in ahtletics. It's getting more, and more prevelant.

It was said in an earlier posting that we (Instructors) have no jurisdiction in their personal life, well...........by the same token, I don't need the authorities watching me, or asking me questions. I have enough to worry about, w/o carrying someones elses baggage.

If they don't have the discipline to deal with it, I don't want you near me.

:asian:

 

[sweeper]

chufeng first off there weren't any specifics in the initial post, the intensity and nature of drug use wasn't stated.. drug use could mean anything from being drunk 24/7 to shooting crack to smoking the ocational joint, all very diffrent problems. I gave a genneral responce. However I think you have to respect people's privacy, first in your school, in my opinion most of the people are not your freinds or are not very good freinds, you are aquanted with them and probably on freindly terms but being a freind is much more than going to class with someone in my opinion, it implies a person relationship with the person, It may be diffrent for you but for my I don't realy interact with people in my class in any way other than through MA so I don't consider them freinds. I don't know them well enough and quite frankly there isn't much I cna do to affect their behavior, and even if I could unless their behavior was obviously self destructive I don't think it would be my place to force on them my opinion of drug use. In other words I don't see any reason why you should try to stop other's recreational drug use as long as their use is responsable. I don't think it is posable to "save" someone from drug use, drug use is an activity that is largly one commited by choice of the individual, now you can affect someone's decisions but if they want to do something they are going to do it. The problem is most people (at leaste most people I know) are well informed on the effects and dangers of drug use and accept the risks when using drugs, in other words there is no valid argument one could make against their use that doesn't parafraise what they already know, and in their judgement the argument is a poor one so what can you do? Also it seems that you think that drug use is an inherantly distructive activity, I would disagree with that perseption (wether it is yours or not) I don't think moderate drug use is nessisaraly a bad thing so I don't think there is much to save someone from and I don't think that you could in most cases even if there was. So as long as they do not attempt to make someone else do something they don't want to, and as long as someone else isn't trying to make them do something they don't want to I would not interfere. And in the case of a school as long as they aren't hurting the school than I don't think it's an issue.

I also think it's important to note that I'm not realy responding to the specific situation more to the genneral question of drug use in a school.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by sweeper
drug use could mean anything ... being drunk 24/7

Hey, don't knock it till you've tried it.
:rofl: