Down Block for Shoot Defense

[Kempojujutsu]

When doing bunkai-using or coming up with idea's for a movement is. One needs to think in all directions, not take what is for granted.

Example since this thread is about a down block. There are other applcations for a down block:
1. Using it as a throwing technique.
2. Joint lock
3. Downward strike
4. a Choke
This list can go on and on. Some sytems of martial arts have taken so much out of their arts, it's become just a kids version of karate. While others have remained true too the orginal arts. I have studied TKD, my instructor in Kempo was a student of General Choi's. What he was taught back in the 60's is like night and day compared to today's TKD.

 

[StuartA]

When doing bunkai-using or coming up with idea's for a movement is.

Actually, Bunkai means to take a movement and explain it.. not coming up with ideas just for the sake of giving them meaning! Researching moves is different from pure bunkai!

One needs to think in all directions, not take what is for granted.

Okay thanks, Ill try and remember that!

Example since this thread is about...

My response to your response was that there are no sprawl techniques in TKD, to which you replied there is, stating to "think in all directions" and offering "horse stance" as a viable option.

Although in your head this may seem like a good technique to use (a bit like the initial downblock example), in practice it is inherently flawed, as a double leg take down (which the initial post refered to) goes for the thighs and has lots of forward momentum and what ever technique is used as a sprawl or similar needs to move the defenders legs back (which a horse stance doesnt do) to allow the upper bodys weight to drop onto the attackers back aka "the sprawl". Furthermore, simply dropping into horse stance would make no difference to the attack working as anotomically the thighs cannot be spread wide enough to stop both of them still being grabbed, that, the forward momentum of the attack and the lack of stability in the directions needed make it a bad technique to use against such an attack.

You could in theory jump back with both feet at once to create a horse stance whilst falling forward, but then its not a horse stance anymore... but a sprawl or a bad version of it, though unless this is practiced a lot its doubtful it would work anyway.

Like I said, such a technique does not appear in TKD or any TKD patterns that I know of, though thats not to say a "sprawl" cannot be used in a TKD class. Perhaps Kempo has such a technqiue within its forms, but AFAIK TKD doesnt.

The technique I offered as a viable alternative however does appear in TKD, performed exactly as it is shown in the pattern (hence it is continually practiced as it is used and is ready for the next step of applying resisting oppoenents). It has both the body weight and the legs moving back, and instead of using your upper body to push the opponents down, it uses the palms.

There are other applcations for a down block:
1. Using it as a throwing technique.
2. Joint lock
3. Downward strike
4. a Choke
This list can go on and on.

Thanks, Ill have to get hold of a book and look them up :boing1:

Some sytems of martial arts have taken so much out of their arts, it's become just a kids version of karate. While others have remained true too the orginal arts. I have studied TKD, my instructor in Kempo was a student of General Choi's. What he was taught back in the 60's is like night and day compared to today's TKD.

This all sounds like a very interesting subject for another thread (honestly), but I doubt the sprawl was in 60s TKD, just like its not in there now!

Stuart

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Actually Bunkai in my hurry to post is too analysis the movements. To study the application of the fighting techniques within ones kata. From my instructor, things may not look as they appear in kata.

 

[StuartA]

Actually Bunkai in my hurry to post is too analysis the movements. To study the application of the fighting techniques within ones kata. From my instructor, things may not look as they appear in kata.

Yes I agree on the first part, that its to analysis the movement and explain it.. but that explanation should be based on how the movement is performed in the kata/pattern/form, which was my point! The horse stance example doesnt fit that, as (apart from it not working IMO) the move as you describe it isnt performed as in a kata/pattern/form to closely resemble a sprawl, certainly its not in TKD (which was my first point).. though I'm open to correction on forms of TKD I dont know of!

If it is, please point out a form/pattern that has a horse stance with the student falling forwards into it, whilst moving their legs backwards or a closely related technique, as opposed to just going into a horse stance, as by that form of analysis we can change any technqiue to fit the desired effect (In theory, but not in practice), which isnt the point of bunkai!

The pieces should fit the puzzel, not the other way round!

Stuart

 

[matt.m]

Every block is a strike. They are breaking techiniques. I suppose that is why I like the hyungs better than the tae guek's. However, after a while they start to more or less blend.

My point is this, I have started il jang and chong gi, the first two forms no matter how you slice it they both begin with a left turn and downward block with the left arm.

I have broken 2 - 1and a quarter pine with the down block.

 

[punisher73]

As a strike to the head/neck as you use evasive footwork, I can see it.
If you use the reverse motion of the downblock you can perform a crossface/neck crank to counter it as some wrestlers do.

Just because a technique isn't spelled out in a kata, DOES NOT mean that the style did not have it in there. Remember, Okinawa had it's own form of wrestling that almost everyone played. The early pioneers of karate would have been familiar with this and knew how to counter it. If you look at the "Bubishi" you will see pictures of using single leg takedowns. So again, early karatekas would have been familiar with both executing a takedown and defending against it.

But, I would also agree that a "horse stance" as a sprawl defense it stretching it a little. The horse stance is used for a grappling defense, but it is more in line with the greco-roman upper body clinching to provide stability.