Don't empty your cup, grab a new one.

[Monkey Turned Wolf127 1]

Fair disclosure: This thought came to me while I was sick last week, but now not sick, I think it still stands.

We've likely all heard the idea of emptying your cup when you learn something new. I think that analogy is flawed. Rather than emptying, I should grab a new cup.

That new cup will have a different flavor profile. If TKD is coke, Shotokan is pepsi, while hapkido is sprite, and BJJ is a lime juice. When I learn a new art, I learn it as the new option, and then once I've gotten to the point I can drink it regularly, then I slowly add them to a third cup, which is the cup I actually use, and see how they mix. For instance, going based on the above analogy, if I mix TKD and shotokan karate, aka coke and pepsi, I might not gain all that much because of how similar they are. If I mix TKD and hapkido, I might like that flavor profile a lot, and gain something entirely new, just like I might feel about mixing coke and sprite.

This leads to the idea that there are also arts that just don't mix well, just like there are drinks that don't - but that doesn't mean you can't have them separately and enjoy them. For example, when I practiced kempo, and I tried Taichi, they just did not mix together. If Kempo was root beer (similar to TKD/Shotokan, another soft drink) then tai chi might have been apple juice. I can absolutely fill separate cups with both, but the second I tried to mix them together I would know that combination wasn't going to work.

Ultimately, each time you try something new, don't empty what you know. Learn the new art as an entirely different drink/filling an entirely different cup. Then, when you feel ready, see if you can blend the two cups together.

 

[windwalker099128 159]

For example, when I practiced kempo, and I tried Taichi, they just did not mix together. If Kempo was root beer (similar to TKD/Shotokan, another soft drink) then tai chi might have been apple juice. I can absolutely fill separate cups with both, but the second I tried to mix them together I would know that combination wasn't going to work.

I often run into Taiji people who feel Taiji is “one thing,” and that they should be able to simply add whatever skill set they find interesting to what they already do when working with me. In most cases, that isn’t possible — in some cases it’s effectively impossible, their existing method is already deeply burned in.


Historically, this was also true.


Wang Yen-nien recounts Zhang Qinlin’s experience with Hu.

"Zhang asked Hu to practice only Taijiquan, but Hu found it very difficult to let go of his Xingyi. He was already a great master, and throwing it out the window was not easy. Zhang repeatedly told Hu that his jin was wrong — it was a Xingyi type of jin, not a Taiji type. Hu acknowledged this, but said he had practiced that way for so long there was little he could do about it.


Recognizing this, Zhang chose to teach Hu the 81-step Taijiquan form, understanding that unless Hu could truly let go of Xingyi, it would be very difficult to teach him Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan."

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf127 1]

I often run into Taiji people who feel Taiji is “one thing,” and that they should be able to simply add whatever skill set they find interesting to what they already do when working with me. In most cases, that isn’t possible — in some cases it’s effectively impossible, their existing method is already deeply burned in.

I've personally experienced this, which is part of why I said some things just shouldn't mix (like apple juice and coke). You know when you try it, that it just doesn't work. And if you train them separately, you have two great drinks. But if you want to combine things, it's better off that you try something else once you realize they don't mix.

The worst thing is realizing they don't mix, so actively forgetting/removing everything you've learned so that the new stuff can work properly. People work hard on their arts, and the idea of removing all that for a new art is crazy to me.

 

[Rich Parsons74 15]

Fair disclosure: This thought came to me while I was sick last week, but now not sick, I think it still stands.

We've likely all heard the idea of emptying your cup when you learn something new. I think that analogy is flawed. Rather than emptying, I should grab a new cup.

That new cup will have a different flavor profile. If TKD is coke, Shotokan is pepsi, while hapkido is sprite, and BJJ is a lime juice. When I learn a new art, I learn it as the new option, and then once I've gotten to the point I can drink it regularly, then I slowly add them to a third cup, which is the cup I actually use, and see how they mix. For instance, going based on the above analogy, if I mix TKD and shotokan karate, aka coke and pepsi, I might not gain all that much because of how similar they are. If I mix TKD and hapkido, I might like that flavor profile a lot, and gain something entirely new, just like I might feel about mixing coke and sprite.

This leads to the idea that there are also arts that just don't mix well, just like there are drinks that don't - but that doesn't mean you can't have them separately and enjoy them. For example, when I practiced kempo, and I tried Taichi, they just did not mix together. If Kempo was root beer (similar to TKD/Shotokan, another soft drink) then tai chi might have been apple juice. I can absolutely fill separate cups with both, but the second I tried to mix them together I would know that combination wasn't going to work.

Ultimately, each time you try something new, don't empty what you know. Learn the new art as an entirely different drink/filling an entirely different cup. Then, when you feel ready, see if you can blend the two cups together.

When I get cross trainers who do something from their other systems, and I see it. I will speak to them quietly at a seminar or camp, or if a lot of people then call everyone back.

I will explain that I am looking for a series to show a specific concept or maneuver.
And that they are not to forget those techniques as they will fit in later.

This tells them I am not invalidating their previous knowledge.
I respect them to acknowledge that.
And that I have a plan and I need everyone on the same page.

Yes one should have the System Cups.
And their new learning cup. (* best for most people for one at a time - there are always exceptions - Mileage may vary *)
And as you stated your favorite cup that lists all the stuff you do as one.

I like the examples and explanation.

 

[HighKick]

Fair disclosure: This thought came to me while I was sick last week, but now not sick, I think it still stands.

We've likely all heard the idea of emptying your cup when you learn something new. I think that analogy is flawed. Rather than emptying, I should grab a new cup.

That new cup will have a different flavor profile. If TKD is coke, Shotokan is pepsi, while hapkido is sprite, and BJJ is a lime juice. When I learn a new art, I learn it as the new option, and then once I've gotten to the point I can drink it regularly, then I slowly add them to a third cup, which is the cup I actually use, and see how they mix. For instance, going based on the above analogy, if I mix TKD and shotokan karate, aka coke and pepsi, I might not gain all that much because of how similar they are. If I mix TKD and hapkido, I might like that flavor profile a lot, and gain something entirely new, just like I might feel about mixing coke and sprite.

This leads to the idea that there are also arts that just don't mix well, just like there are drinks that don't - but that doesn't mean you can't have them separately and enjoy them. For example, when I practiced kempo, and I tried Taichi, they just did not mix together. If Kempo was root beer (similar to TKD/Shotokan, another soft drink) then tai chi might have been apple juice. I can absolutely fill separate cups with both, but the second I tried to mix them together I would know that combination wasn't going to work.

Ultimately, each time you try something new, don't empty what you know. Learn the new art as an entirely different drink/filling an entirely different cup. Then, when you feel ready, see if you can blend the two cups together.

I fully agree. That said, there have been more than a few times I have held onto some traditional teachings that TBH are not all that great simply because it was what I was taught first and it has a ton of sentimental value.

A bit tangential I know, but my pea brain can only hold onto so much.

 

[skribs127 148]

I like the idea of comparing martial arts to sodas, because those are both things I love.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf127 1]

When I get cross trainers who do something from their other systems, and I see it. I will speak to them quietly at a seminar or camp, or if a lot of people then call everyone back.

I will explain that I am looking for a series to show a specific concept or maneuver.
And that they are not to forget those techniques as they will fit in later.

This tells them I am not invalidating their previous knowledge.
I respect them to acknowledge that.
And that I have a plan and I need everyone on the same page.

Yes one should have the System Cups.
And their new learning cup. (* best for most people for one at a time - there are always exceptions - Mileage may vary *)
And as you stated your favorite cup that lists all the stuff you do as one.

I like the examples and explanation.

I think this is a good example actually. If I attend a seminar which is teaching me how to create a new drink, my knowledge creating another drink, no matter how impressive, is not all that important in the moment. But I still shouldn't forget that other drink just to learn the new one.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

Rather than emptying, I should grab a new cup.

Your primary MA style may teach you how to use riffle. You then find out that you also need machine gun, grenade, tank in battle field.

In combat, you will need 4 basic parts:

1. your primary style that contains basic kicks/punches (rifle).
2. power generation method (grenade).
3. speed generation method (machine gun).
4. throwing skill (tank).

 

[skribs127 148]

One thing I've found is sometimes learning the why something is done different in another martial art can help you understand the why you do things the way you do in yours.

A specific example is how you switch feet in Muay Thai vs. Taekwondo. In Taekwondo, our switch feet is typically both feet at the same time, and we often switch our hips. In Muay Thai, I learned more of a stutter step (like you might see a football wide receiver perform to change direction when running a route). After training that footwork for a while, I tried it with Taekwondo stances and it just didn't work. With the longer, bladed stance, it takes too long to switch one foot at a time. But with the narrower stance, it's actually faster and helps generate power.

This is an insight I wouldn't have had if I only ever trained Taekwondo. But it's also an insight I wouldn't have had if I went to Muay Thai, learned this other way of doing things, and then thought, "Taekwondo is wrong, why did I bother learning the other way."

 

[Same Trick74 25]

Only soft drinks?

 

[BlackbeltNovice]

One thing I've found is sometimes learning the why something is done different in another martial art can help you understand the why you do things the way you do in yours.

A specific example is how you switch feet in Muay Thai vs. Taekwondo. In Taekwondo, our switch feet is typically both feet at the same time, and we often switch our hips. In Muay Thai, I learned more of a stutter step (like you might see a football wide receiver perform to change direction when running a route). After training that footwork for a while, I tried it with Taekwondo stances and it just didn't work. With the longer, bladed stance, it takes too long to switch one foot at a time. But with the narrower stance, it's actually faster and helps generate power.

This is an insight I wouldn't have had if I only ever trained Taekwondo. But it's also an insight I wouldn't have had if I went to Muay Thai, learned this other way of doing things, and then thought, "Taekwondo is wrong, why did I bother learning the other way."

Cool story, bro.

 

[Prince_Alarming66 2]

I remember when we were kids we used to make all sorts of unscripted mixes of soft drinks with all those soft drink machines they had at the Tesco café. I suppose in this analogy that's MMA. they tasted really good..

 

[skribs127 148]

I remember when we were kids we used to make all sorts of unscripted mixes of soft drinks with all those soft drink machines they had at the Tesco café. I suppose in this analogy that's MMA. they tasted really good..

I used to do that all the time. I went out for lunch with a friend and his family, and his kids did the same. So it still happens!

 

[Prince_Alarming66 2]

Fanta and sprite and all things nice, that's what memories are made of

 

[wab25]

So, I like and agree with parts of the "grab a new cup" idea.... but other parts I see in a different way.

I do like and fully agree with not bringing your old art to the new art. Learn the new art, separate from the old art, so that you can fully understand the new art. Then deal with both arts later, on your time. To me, this is an absolute must, otherwise you will never really understand the new art.

I also understand how hard it is to "empty my cup" or even separate it. I am currently doing a lot of cross training in Aikido. Parts are easy to separate from my Danzan Ryu. It is easy not throw o'goshi on the Aikido mat. What is harder is the ukemi. Danzan Ryu ukemi is different from Aikido ukemi... the harder, the faster the Aikido throw... the more likely I am to take Danzan Ryu ukemi. I fully understand, that to grasp many parts of Aikido, I need to learn their style of ukemi.... I am trying, but its a work in progress.... it is sometime hard to empty the cup or get a new cup.... But it should be done.

The part where I differ, is in the "mixing" of the two arts. And I especially differ with the idea that two arts would make a bad "mix." To me, this shows that we are still tied up in the idea that the kata is a catalog of techniques that define a system. If I can't find kick A in Shotokan kata, then Kick A is not a part of Shotokan Karate and that Shotokan Karate therefore has a flaw or a hole.... which then becomes a liability or weakness that we need to look elsewhere to find a solution for...

The way I see things... all martial arts (or all things martial) have the same core principles and ideas. The different arts or systems study these same core principles and ideas, but come at them from different points of view... further, they see the problem a little differently and have different ideas on what satisfies the solution. TKD wants to kick the enemy in the head, Karate wants to punch his heart through his back, Japanese Jujitsu wants to break bones and kill, Judo wants to throw, BJJ wants to submit on the ground.... All of these use those same core principles and ideas, but they frame the situation differently and come at it from different places. This means that how these different arts discuss these principles and ideas will be different, what parts they emphasize will be different... because they are expressing the principles and ideas in different ways, to accomplish different solutions. In short, the arts have these same principles and ideas in different frameworks.

So, when I get my second cup, and work on my second art.... my idea is not to have a new art to mix with my primary art or add to my primary art. My idea is to look at those same principles again, from a different point of view, in a different framework. The goal here is to have a better understanding of those principles and ideas. The more I understand a tool, the more I can do with it. To be clear, the tool is not the technique, the tool is the principle or idea that is being taught by the technique / kata.

So the difference for me is that after I have my primary cup and my second cup... the idea is not to mix them or even add one to the other. The idea is to apply my better understanding of those core principles and ideas to my primary art. If done right, my primary art gets much better. Doing that silly Aikido Tenkan wrist grab exercise (yes the one we make fun of because it is so fake) has improved my understanding of Aikido. But, it has also improved my o'goshi throw in Danzan Ryu.... as well as my Kesa Gatame Judo pin.... but it has also improved my Shotokan Mawashi Geri. It did not do this because the motions were similar.... they were not. They did this because all these arts use the same core principles and ideas.... even if they express them in very different ways. As my understanding of those principles gets better, my use of them gets better... regardless if the physical movement is the same or even similar.

Yes, I do add new things to my grab bag of tricks. But, remember, the tricks done in the kata do not define the system. The specific framework for the art defines how that art views those core principles and ideas and that framework is what defines the art. So, while Aikido has no kicks in its kata, an Aikidoka can use Aikido to Mawashi Geri some dudes head.... so long as he is using the Aikido framework. Yes, it will help if he learns from someone who knows how to perform that kick.... but Mawashi Geri is just a trick or technique. The katas and training methods were put together, not as catalogs of what the system contains... but as the way to understand the framework as that art sees it. This is like the grammar book I have used in other posts here. The kata and training methods are the grammar book for the art. It is not meant to restrict the student to use only the words found in the grammar book. The goal is to use the words in the grammar book to teach a framework, which you can then use to express whatever ideas you want, in the way you want, using the words you want (even if those words were not in the book). Yes, knowing more words allows you more freedom and ability to express more things....

 

[Prince_Alarming66 2]

The thing being, when you were in school, you learned maths and English. You didn't start trying to add letters or spell numbers, did you? So yes, I think the idea that you must devote yourself entirely to one thing is silly.

 

[HighKick]

One thing I've found is sometimes learning the why something is done different in another martial art can help you understand the why you do things the way you do in yours.

A specific example is how you switch feet in Muay Thai vs. Taekwondo. In Taekwondo, our switch feet is typically both feet at the same time, and we often switch our hips. In Muay Thai, I learned more of a stutter step (like you might see a football wide receiver perform to change direction when running a route). After training that footwork for a while, I tried it with Taekwondo stances and it just didn't work. With the longer, bladed stance, it takes too long to switch one foot at a time. But with the narrower stance, it's actually faster and helps generate power.

This is an insight I wouldn't have had if I only ever trained Taekwondo. But it's also an insight I wouldn't have had if I went to Muay Thai, learned this other way of doing things, and then thought, "Taekwondo is wrong, why did I bother learning the other way."

To clarify a few things; This stance work is Not universal for TKD. It was your instructors version of it. I say it this way because the more I hear you talk about your old TKD school the more I am convinced it was a standalone, outlier, off-shoot version that one or a few black belts got together and created. Good/bad? I have no idea. But inconsistent in more than a few areass.

More traditional (Kwan) schools will use the long, deep stances. Newer, KKW schools have shorter, standing stances exclusively.

Where there seems to be a disconnect in your old schools training, (or yours exclusively) is that the use of the long, deep stances are Purely for conditioning. It should be clearly taught & explained this way. Learning to move through these deep stances and create power will make it Much easier to create power from a casual stance or something unexpected.

Footwork should be part and parcel of a good program. And Yes the Why, How, AND When are very important. It is usually easy to spot someone who does not understand this and exploit the opportunity. Something as basic as fighting unorthodox can throw some people off.

 

[Gyakuto128 137]

I don’t think the original aphorism was suggesting one should discard previous knowledge in order to accept new information, after all, our capacity to learn is infinite; our cups are of infinite volume. It just means one should be open to new learning, having the openness and eagerness of the beginner’s mind (shoshin 初心 ). Our cups are made of mimetic polyalloy.

I think the ‘mixing of drinks’ analogy is fallacious because unlike soft beverages, all knowledge can be mixed together and be flavorsome But most analogies don’t bear close scrutiny.

 

[skribs127 148]

There was a time when I tried to learn to play musical instruments. I started on guitar, then moved to bass.

When I started learning bass, I learned there's two main ways people play it. The "right" way is to walk your fingers to strum the strings. The "metal" way is to use a pick, like it's just a thicc guitar.

While some people might take the debate seriously (as in any hobby), most people joke around with it, and ultimately know that it's more about what sound you want and what music you're making. Walking the strings fits better if you want the base to provide a nice sonic foundation to the song, but the metal way sounds better in aggressive music like you'll hear in hard rock and heavy metal.

Most advice generally boiled down to: if you're starting to learn music with the bass, play the way that the bassists you like play. If you're a metalhead, play with a pick. If you like softer music, play with your fingers.

With one exception: if you are coming from guitar, you should learn to walk the bass. Because if you start with a pick, something you already know, you may never bother to go back and learn to walk the bass.

While sometimes people get carried away with why their martial art is the best, I ultimately think it's understanding our differences that helps us understand our arts better.

 

[Prince_Alarming66 2]

because unlike soft beverages, all knowledge can be mixed together and be flavorsome

I have a mix of coke, fanta and sprite that begs to differ, they can be mixed very tastily