Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
Does anyone spar using their Tai Chi.
Or do most people only do Tai Chi for health.
Or do most people only do Tai Chi for health.
Do you spar
- Thread starter Yoshiyahu
- Start date
as i know, before sparing, there are many steps one should pass. the first one is standing stake, the second one is push hands, in 8 postures(Pls see "the 13 posture of taiji" posted by Xue Sheng), the third one is push hands freely, the forth one is push hands in 8 postures in one or two step move, the fifth one is push hands freely in one or two steps move. the last one is free sparing.
so when you can learn how to spar, it's years later.
so when you can learn how to spar, it's years later.
CDKJudoka
Purple Belt
I have seen one Tai Chi stylist fight in a tourney, and it was the most amazing thing I had ever seen, considering my presumptions about it being a slow and useless art.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
No he is saying that you will not get to sparing until you have trained it for a while and you will not be able to use taiji like it is meant to be used until you have trained it for many years. You are trained applications along the way.
But like I have said many times before to learn taiji takes time, if you want to learn how to defend yourself quick don't train taiji go train something else. If you have patience to learn it and want to defend yourself into your 80s or 90s then by all means train taiji
Bottom-line is you will be able to defend yourself with Wing Chun much sooner than you would with Taiji. You will also be able to defend yourself much quicker with Wing Chun than Bagua or Xingyiquan to. Neijia are trained a bit different than Waijia. But if you understand the 13 postures you can defend yourself if need be, but most that train taiji today never work on applications or push hands beyond the basics.
The figures I have read are as follows and most certainly not proven by study and are a best rough estimates since so much depends on how often you see your Sifu and how hard you train. and these are not how long it takes to be a master but how long it takes to be able to defend yourself as long as you train diligently
Wing Chun = 1 year
Xingyiquan = 2 years
Baguazhang = 4 years
Taijiquan = 6 years
It all depends on what you are after and wath you want from a given style.
thank Xue Sheng for your explanation.
i think it's easy for you to know how to use, but it's hard for you to really use when needed.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Actually you will be hard pressed to find many traditional Neijia people that will call Wing Chun Internal. I myself would put it more towards an internal/external style like White Crane is thought of. As to Xingyiquan it is considered a Neijia but there are some that also think of that is internal/external.
You have to understand there are multiple definitions of Internal External that range from Origin internal to China or external to China or is its origin Taoist or Buddhist or is it based on how it trains Qi or if it is considered Qing or Ming. But to be honest they are all pretty much meaningless and the division between Neijia and Waijia did not really appear until Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan in 1669.
The traditionally excepted Neijia styles are Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Xingyiquan and Liuhebafa. Many also have no problem calling Yiquan/Dachengquan neijia as well due to its origins and methods of practice.
OP
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #10
Wing Chun is an Internal Art
By Yoshiyahu Ben Yisrael
By Yoshiyahu Ben Yisrael
Wing Chun is Both Waijia and Neijia...It is both external and internal. Wing Chun combines the Snake and Crane Gung Fu. Wingchun uses Softness and Relaxation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun#Relaxation
Wing Chun utilizes sensitivity. Chi Sau isn't too different from push hands. Wing Chun also focuses on ones root and center of gravity. An using your root and body structure to deliever power over muscular strength. Alignment & Structure is preferred over brute force.
Wikipedia also says:"Some Chinese martial arts other than the ones Sun named also teach what are termed internal practices, despite being generally classified as external (e.g. Wing Chun)."
Wing Chun is combination of Snake and White Crane Gung Fu you are correct. What are the attributes of Snake and Crane?
The Snake is internal: The snake form is important for developing qi within the five animal form. The Snake remains calm and Relaxed
Wikipedia says; "The snake is also one of the animals imitated in Baguazhang and Xingyiquan. The sinuous, fluid motion of the snake lends itself to the practical theory that underlies the "soft" martial arts."
The Crane is Internal: Crane techniques are circular in nature. However, the crane is always soft and relaxed.
Wing Chun Qoutes about Chi and Internal fighting
Maxims of Wing Chun
The Yin Yang principle should be thoroughly understood.
Soft and relaxed strength will put your opponent in jeopardy.
Wing Chun Proverbs
Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power.
The Wooden Man develops use of power.
Keys to Wing Chun
Unite your waist and stance.
Do not use all your strength.
Movements must be agile.
Comprehend the principles of Yin and Yang.
Remain calm.
Be steady with your breathing and strength.
Sink your inner chi.
Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma (Wing Chun Mother Stance)
Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.
Hold the head and neck straight and keep the spirit alert.
Sil Lim Tau "Small Idea"
Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.
To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.
Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.
Chum Kiu "Seeking Bridge"
Eyes are trained to be alert; the chi flows in a perpetual motion.
Chum Kiu trains the stance and the waist; the arm bridge is short and the step is narrow.
Turning the stance with a circular movement, will allow superior generation of power.
Do not collide with a strong opponent; with a weak opponent use a direct frontal assault.
General Sayings of Wing Chun
Power is generated from the joints. Strength originates from the heels.
Store mental energy with the mind.
Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.
No harm will come if chi is nurtured naturally. Power can be stored but with enough to spare.
chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back.
In uniting the waist with the stance, power can be generated.
Circular and straight accompany each other. Bent and straight complement one another.
Extreme softness enables one to be hard. Being extremely natural enables one to be agile.
Hand techniques must follow the Yin Yang principle. Strength must be applied with inner power. There is a counteraction to every attack.
Do not collide with a strong arm bridge. Get out of the way and take initiative to attack.
Do not follow, force, or butt against the opponent's hands.
If the opponent grasps your arm bridge, do not oppose him with brute force. Go with the opponent's force and change into rolling hands. Turn around the situation to control him.
Final Remarks; There is much more I can say about Chi and Internal aspects or Neijia of Wing Chun. But I will close for now. Remember Wing Chun is both Snake and Crane kung fu. Wing Chu deals with redirecting an strong opponents energy and not fighting strength with strenght. Wing Chun also deals with sensitivity. As well as Chi cultivation and utilization. What is the inch punch. But Short internal power. With out Chi Wing Chun is useless. Karate is very hard style which in beginning you learn strickly external techniques. But Wing Chun teaches both external strength building and internal strength. Even the Yee Jee Kim Yeung ma or Clamping Goat Stance is Chi Kung stance. I once saw a video where people were doing standing meditation in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. In fact my Sifu teaches to stand in the stance and focus on inner Chi. For ten to twenty minutes a day. There is definite benefit to Chi Cultivation. Along with practicing building a root.
T
JadecloudAlchemist
Master of Arts
I don't know much about Wing chun I think there are some internal aspect there. But I think the training is different from say Hsing Yi,Bagua, and Tai chi chuan which makes them more internal sort of speak.
In the internal arts I will use Hsing Yi the more martial of the 3 as my point.
In training in Hsing Yi there is a lot of empahasis on Santi posture.
Then there alot of work to get thru Wu hsing (five element) form.
Whats going on is you are learning more how to use the body as one unit,how to root,proper structure,alignment,proper use of power before you are even learning how to apply it.
Learning all this you really don't have time to spar and as the masters use to say if you can spar with the internal you are not really practicing the internal. That means a strike from Hsing Yi should end the fight.
Wang Shu Jin says " A fight should have 3 moves anything more is sloppy"
In the internal arts I will use Hsing Yi the more martial of the 3 as my point.
In training in Hsing Yi there is a lot of empahasis on Santi posture.
Then there alot of work to get thru Wu hsing (five element) form.
Whats going on is you are learning more how to use the body as one unit,how to root,proper structure,alignment,proper use of power before you are even learning how to apply it.
Learning all this you really don't have time to spar and as the masters use to say if you can spar with the internal you are not really practicing the internal. That means a strike from Hsing Yi should end the fight.
Wang Shu Jin says " A fight should have 3 moves anything more is sloppy"
OP
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #12
Great points but all very similiar to how I learn wing chun.
Your Xing Yi sounds very interesting...
When I learn Wing Chun my Sifu was very admant about having proper structure and posture. In Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma we were taught our structure should be relax, pelvic tilted in, chest curled and relax the energy in the dan tien. We were taught to work on root in our stance. This is the key to generating force. We were to go over forms and also basics endlesses until our bodies gave into the Structure of Wing Chun. Wing Chun is about whole body power or as you say using the body as one unit. We were also taught about the body alignment. When the head leads the tail follows. As my Sifu always said. I am still discovering more and more what that actually means. But all these are basics. Along with proper foot work. Which is another key of power. An Uniting the waist with your structure.
As for sparring. The sparring was to learn how to flow. Not to be choppy but have flow and be relaxed when fighting. If someone has skill the fight will be more than three moves. Now an amaetur on street who may be trying to mug you a fight may last thirty seconds. But to another skilled fighter well thats when things can get hairy. But either case we did light sparring to develop or flow and skill in Wing Chun. We also do Chi Sau to develop our hand techniques and improve sensitivity and get use to feeling your partners force and learning how to manipulate, turn off and redirect their force. This is purpose of free stlye Chi Sau.
There is much more I can share but so far I see only similarites and not much difference.
Wing Chun is big on
Breath
Structure
Body Alignment
Chi Cultivation
Whole body Unitny
Forms Study and practice
Sup Yee Sik (Basics design to teach one how to apply power and its proper use.)
So with that being said we are on the same page...Excellent....
Your Xing Yi sounds very interesting...
When I learn Wing Chun my Sifu was very admant about having proper structure and posture. In Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma we were taught our structure should be relax, pelvic tilted in, chest curled and relax the energy in the dan tien. We were taught to work on root in our stance. This is the key to generating force. We were to go over forms and also basics endlesses until our bodies gave into the Structure of Wing Chun. Wing Chun is about whole body power or as you say using the body as one unit. We were also taught about the body alignment. When the head leads the tail follows. As my Sifu always said. I am still discovering more and more what that actually means. But all these are basics. Along with proper foot work. Which is another key of power. An Uniting the waist with your structure.
As for sparring. The sparring was to learn how to flow. Not to be choppy but have flow and be relaxed when fighting. If someone has skill the fight will be more than three moves. Now an amaetur on street who may be trying to mug you a fight may last thirty seconds. But to another skilled fighter well thats when things can get hairy. But either case we did light sparring to develop or flow and skill in Wing Chun. We also do Chi Sau to develop our hand techniques and improve sensitivity and get use to feeling your partners force and learning how to manipulate, turn off and redirect their force. This is purpose of free stlye Chi Sau.
There is much more I can share but so far I see only similarites and not much difference.
Wing Chun is big on
Breath
Structure
Body Alignment
Chi Cultivation
Whole body Unitny
Forms Study and practice
Sup Yee Sik (Basics design to teach one how to apply power and its proper use.)
So with that being said we are on the same page...Excellent....
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Sorry but I don't really care how many articles you find or post Wing Chun is not "Traditionally" considered an Internal Chinese Martial Art and you would still be hard pressed to find a traditionally trained Neijia person that would call it as such.
And I absolutely do not understand the need for some Wing Chun people to call Wing Chun internal. It does not train the same as the traditionally excepted Neijia styles it does not fit the name if you are looking at it historically either.
You can call in internal you can shout it from the highest mountain tops you can post copious articles from Wing Chun practitioners that say it is and I will still tell you it is not. The closet I can get is to call it an internal/external style.
But if you need to call it internal then by all means go right ahead but I guarantee you I will not.
But on the flip side Neijia/Waijia are simply labels that appeared more as a protest against the Qing and whether it is internal of external in reality if you train it right it is all rather effective and you can do them all for a very long time. And to be entirely honest it is really not worth arguing about and I have been through this before on MT and really do not want to get into it again.
And a VERY big part of Xingyiquan that makes it internal are things like Santi Shi
OP
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #15
Wing Chun is an Internal and External System
Excellent point of view. Wing Chun is both Internal and External. With Wing Chun one trains both Neijia Waijia ways. Your are totally Correct. I didn't mean to say that Wing Chun was 100% internal and 100% soft and not external hardness at all. Let rephrase my response. I simple pointed that in my notes from class and supporting qoutes from other sources like dictionary and wikipedia It shows that Wing Chun is both Internal and External. To classify WC as merely External is just as wrong to classify it as all Internal. It is both. For remember Wing Chun is a combinantion of Snake and Crane. An just look at Tai Chi and how it has used the snake methods and took it to a higher level. No Wing Chun you don't seem the same movements and stances as you would in Tai Chi. Accept for maybe the pole form where you see the traditional Horse stance and Cat Stance.
But elements that involved Internal styles you also see present in Wing Chun to supplement to External. Wing Chun Disciples are taught to overcome hardness with softness and redirect and neurtalize force. Even some of steps over the years I discovered aid in the pursuit of neutralizing and attackers pressing energy.
As for the Article I wrote...my name is Yoshiyahu Ben Yisrael...its not an article I just took from some where else...True I have reference sources. An I make mention of those sources. But my words are my views and what I have found from studing. In fact I personally fell inlove with Wing Chun. If someone told me it was an internal style before I started practicing it. I might have not really even studied it. Because at 16 I am wanted to be able to kick,punch and block effectively. I wasn't interesting in all the internal uprooting aspect and neutralizing energy then. But now I realize that those aspects are also major key to blocking,kicking and punching effectively. An opponent uprooted or structure unstabled can be hit easier than a foe with his root intact...
Xue Zheng said:
I asked you how does your Tai Chi train you?
Wing Chun does external training that Tai Chi doesn't engage in I agree. But Tai Chi does have a Tai Chi Ball.Those Balls can be pretty heavy from 30lbs to 80lbs depending on the level of Master using it. Tai Chi also free flowing drills as well. Tai Chi also trains forms as well. Wing Chun doesn't have a long form but it does have three hand forms. Wing Chun doesn't have a broadsword form or a straight sword form but it does have staff and short sword form. Wing Chun doesn't fight against force or use brute force. Wing Chun doesn't have push hands but it does have Two hand Chi Sau and one handed Chi Sau. Doesn't push hands have both one hand and two hand techniques for push hands? Sure it does.
Similiarities with in differences.
Wing Chun practice is phyiscally and externally grueling. Because it trains your body phyiscally and also trains your Chi internally. Its hard to explain with showing you first hand. But there are Chi Exercises I was instructed to do. Also in addition to practicing forms fast. I was also instructed to do them slowly to build chi,to gain understanding and focus of the technique. Also the stances are centerd to develop Chi..So we will have to both agree that Wing Chun has both External and Internal Aspects. But they go about training differently than lets say Tai Chi or Bagua Zhang?
But Bagua doesn't train to same way as Tai Chi Chuan. Nor does Xing Yi Quan train the same way as Tai Chi...There Similarites with in differences. An Bagua has some grueling hardcore drills of each indiviual move that reminds of the five animals. An Bauga also has some phyiscal training even more grueling the Wing Chun....Please share with me some conditioning tools used in Bagua Zhang with carring bricks while walking on bricks and also what do Bagua Zhang fighters do besides walk around the tree. Do they strike the tree with their seven starts and body? Is this not phyiscal and internal conditioning together?
Do you agree?
JadecloudAlchemist
Master of Arts
Yes there is internal aspects to Wing chun just like there is internal aspects to say Judo in the higheset level.
I don't carry bricks or anything when walking circle just walking circle for an hour is hard enough. I remember when I first started walking circle after practice I could not get up.
Same with during Santi shi or doing Chen style silk reeling. A good amount of people train external arts before they go into internal arts. Internal arts have alot of training which is the core principle of the art such as Santi for Hsing yi circle walking for Bagua and silk reeling for Chen taichi.
Usually you are working on perfecting that before you are learning any applications. So sparing might build bad habits such as tension such as not being able to root such as not having correct structure.
Yoshiyahu,
You speak about things done in Wing chun and are comparing it to what the internal arts are doing. Yes all martial arts focus on stance,rooting,and so on but the internal arts put a higher concentration on it meaning external practices it but internal is it. Just look at Yi chuan.
Oh I don't know I can see silk reeling type exercises in Bagua and Hsing yi. I think the same principles are there maybe just a different way to achieve it.
Well you have stake forms. You have linear forms. But I am busy with practicing linking forms and animal forms while walking circle.
I don't carry bricks or anything when walking circle just walking circle for an hour is hard enough. I remember when I first started walking circle after practice I could not get up.
Same with during Santi shi or doing Chen style silk reeling. A good amount of people train external arts before they go into internal arts. Internal arts have alot of training which is the core principle of the art such as Santi for Hsing yi circle walking for Bagua and silk reeling for Chen taichi.
Usually you are working on perfecting that before you are learning any applications. So sparing might build bad habits such as tension such as not being able to root such as not having correct structure.
Yoshiyahu,
You speak about things done in Wing chun and are comparing it to what the internal arts are doing. Yes all martial arts focus on stance,rooting,and so on but the internal arts put a higher concentration on it meaning external practices it but internal is it. Just look at Yi chuan.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I don't agree and what weapons they train or forms or lack thereof they train have nothing to do with it. Yiquan is internal but has no forms. Xingyiquan can have more weapons training than any other internal but it has fewer forms than Taiji or Bagua. Bagua trains weapons that Taiji does not train.
Also not all styles of Taijiquan deal with the taiji ball. And if they do it was historically a higher level of training. Meaning you already learned the internal way of movement and using the mind to move more than muscle and you have unified the body so you now use the ball to train but ONLY after the internal work. Where Wing Chun tends towards very external in the beginning.
Bagua and Xingyiquan also do a lot of internal work before training the external. I cannot speak for Bagua since I have only limited experience with it. But I made the mistake of trying to train to much external in Xingyiquan early on and it will not work (or at least it won't for me) Xingyi tends to train a bit different though it is rather external at the beginning but it is not focusing on the external. You have to relax and in order to do that you are, in the beginning doing things rather externally but it is not to train the external it is to train the internal. Stand in Santi Shi for 5 minutes and in the beginning it is all muscle and stress and pain but the idea is to learn to relax in the stance and not focus on the external but the internal. The saying in Xingyi is if you can stand in santi for 20 minutes (meaning 20/side for a total of 40 minutes) you are a beginner.
Wing Chun is a great MA, I trained a bit of it, and I love it for its simplicity, not meaning simple but without frill and rather direct, but it is not the same focus as Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi do in the beginning.
There is an old saying in CMA that say internal goes to external and external goes to internal. Basically they all end up the same if you train them correctly
OP
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #18
Okay well let me rephrase the statement. Not all Wing Chun is equal...you may have learn a very external Wing Chun...I have met people who practice it more externally with no direction the chi...but thats because WC is now being watered down in states...because people dont want to hear about chi or its cultivation....But standing in various stances to train the internal side from the beginning is something I had to do too...other exercises that appear external actually build up your internal power.
I don't think punching a candle flame is very external but I could be wrong. Or punching a piece of paper is external but I could be wrong. In your opinion Xing Yi starts off as external...Wing Chun starts off at the beginner level with some aspect of external and some aspect of internal...atleast my Sifu did with me. He gave me both. He said both are needed...you can not have external with out internal. Otherwise your incomplete...You need both hard and soft. So we trained that way?
But Wing Chun doesn't exclusively do internal work in the beginning...Nor is it exclusively external...it is a focus on both aspects to build you up both internally and externally in the beginning..
Please share some of your thoughts on the external aspects you learn from Xingyi ?
An how do you train external but focus on internal?
I don't think punching a candle flame is very external but I could be wrong. Or punching a piece of paper is external but I could be wrong. In your opinion Xing Yi starts off as external...Wing Chun starts off at the beginner level with some aspect of external and some aspect of internal...atleast my Sifu did with me. He gave me both. He said both are needed...you can not have external with out internal. Otherwise your incomplete...You need both hard and soft. So we trained that way?
But Wing Chun doesn't exclusively do internal work in the beginning...Nor is it exclusively external...it is a focus on both aspects to build you up both internally and externally in the beginning..
Please share some of your thoughts on the external aspects you learn from Xingyi ?
An how do you train external but focus on internal?
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Punching a candle flame or paper has nothing to do with it although impressive when done right both my Taiji sifu and my Sanda sifu have called that type of training parlor tricks. Actually my Sanda sifu called is flower fist but that is a whole different story.
And the best way to answer your question about Xingyi is this
These are both Santi Shi - lower is for martial arts, higher is for qi cultivation -
Santi Shi
Santi Shi
Get into that stance and hold it for 5 minutes and then switch sides when you can hold that for 20 minutes a side we will start teaching you Wu Xing.
IMO, Xingyi does not start out as external it is just that the first basic forms are that way since one has little other training. The focus is on internal. And traditionally you would stand in Santi and do nothing else until you could stand in it for 20 minutes or more. My second Sifu’s sifu was still that way when he trained with him. If you could not stand santi for 20 minutes per side you had no internal and could not train Xingyiquan. Like I said if you can stand in santi for 20 minutes you are a beginner. And that literally meant that if you could not do that you were not going to be taught.
And the form of Wing Chun I trained is form Ip Ching (my Sifu’s sifu) and there was internal work in Sil lim tao but it is still not a neijia, sorry it is what it is and impressive CMA that is rather effective in a fight that is at best internal/external but it is not Neijia.
There are different levels and types of Qigong training as well and Ba Duan Jin is not thought of the same as Zhan Zhuang. 5 animal frolics is not the same as DaMo's Muscle Tendon Changing & Marrow Brain Washing. They do not all train the same but they are still qigong but different levels of qigong some considered more external than others. However Zhan Zhaung is also the basis of Yiquan and part of Xingyiquan training as well as some styles of Taijiquan. Chen style trains Chan si jin, Yang style doesn't but they are still both taijiquan and neijia. But you may also find Zhan Zhuang and in Shaolinquan and you will find qigong training it Shaolin but it is still considered Waijia and to be honest there is likely a whole lot more qigong training in true Shaolin than Wing Chun. And yet I have never heard of a Shaolin practitioner wanting to be called Neijia.
There are multiple reasons a style is called Neijia from the way they train qi to the origin of the religion that they are ultimately associated with but the truth of the matter is that the differentiation between the 2 did not appear until 1669 in the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan and it was more of a protest against the Qing (outsiders) than it was a historical claim. Later Sun Lutang popularized it but it is still fairly meaning less but it is a label we are stuck with and Niejia styles are defined as Liuhebafa, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Taijiquan and later to the party is Yiquan (dachengquan) that is it. Sorry as I said before you can look at it anyway you like ask whatever questions you like and I will still come back to the same thing, Wing Chun is not a Neijia style. It is at best Internal/External and if you want to compare it to Xingyiquan then the closest I can get is where Xingyiquan were to be defined as Internal/External then Wing Chun would be External/Internal meaning much more emphasis on the external than Xingyiquan. If yuo widh to call wing chun a neijia by all means go ahead but I will not call it a neijia style it just does not fit any of the definitions.
I trained sanda and it is without a doubt external and has absolutely no qigong training but yet it has many internal aspects in its generation and use of power but it is still an external and if I were to ask my Sanda sifu about this Internal External stuff as it applies to Sanda he would likely tell me it doesn't matter throw more kicks do more tuishou throw more palm strikes and be quite.
Do you see what I am trying to say here?
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OP
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #20
I understand but i simply disagree...some sifu's actually reguire you to sit in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma for 30 minutes to and Hour. Some Wing Chun Tongs. Required the first hour of class be dedicated to Sil Lim Tau. That means you do the form once for an entire hour...very very very slowly....
Wing Chun stance...
Sil Lim Tao is done slowly for Chi Gong meditation (Alot slower than the video)
Standing Meditation
Wing Chun stance...
Sil Lim Tao is done slowly for Chi Gong meditation (Alot slower than the video)
Standing Meditation
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