Do you have "summary form" in your MA system?

[Kung Fu Wang]

A "summary form" is a form that contain the most important strategies/principles/techniques.

Usually, the "summary form" is the last form that you learn in your system. It's like a "survey paper" that you study before you start to do your own research.

The CMA praying mantis system contains such form. My long fist system doesn't contain it. Does your MA system contain it?

 

[isshinryuronin]

A "summary form" is a form that contain the most important strategies/principles/techniques.

Usually, the "summary form" is the last form that you learn in your system. It's like a "survey paper" that you study before you start to do your own research.

Does your MA system contain it?

For isshinryu, the fom is Sunsu and it is the last empty hand form in the system. It is constructed from techniques taken from all the other kata. And not just from isshinryu. Moves from shorin and goju ryu kata that Master Shimabuku learned but chose not to include in his system are found as well.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

For isshinryu, the fom is Sunsu and it is the last empty hand form in the system. It is constructed from techniques taken from all the other kata. And not just from isshinryu. Moves from shorin and goju ryu kata that Master Shimabuku learned but chose not to include in his system are found as well.

Agreed.

 

[wab25]

I guess I see things differently.....

A "summary form" is a form that contain the most important strategies/principles/techniques.

Most of the arts that I have trained in are systems. By that, I mean there is an order and a progression to what is taught to the student, so that the advanced stuff builds on the basic stuff. (as opposed to arts where you do random technique of the week and hope that the student eventually puts it all together)

In these types of systems.... the very first form would be communicating the foundational, or most important concepts of the art. These are the things upon which, the rest of the art is built.

So, from this perspective.... the summary form would be the first form you learn. In Danzan Ryu that would be Katate Hazushi ichi. This form teaches all the core principles, ideas and strategies used in all the other forms. It also teaches the body mechanics, the power generation and the distancing principles used.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I don't think Funakoshi or Nakayama has ever designated such a kata in Shotokan. There is no kata that has "everything" from all the other kata. But personally, I think Sochin might be the best candidate for this. I also think that if someone who had no interest in pursuing karate long term should only learn one kata, it should probably be Kanku Dai or Jion.

 

[jks9199]

In the Bando system that I train in, we have a few different forms along those lines. The "black belt" form is the Line Form; it contains elements from all of the more advanced Animal Systems, and captures many principles introduced and taught in the earlier forms. Within the 9 Animal Systems, each has one or more forms that serve as sort of encyclopedias or overviews. The forms don't contain everything in the system, nor do they contain the fundamental drills that help to develop the attributes -- but they show the major weapons, tactics, and strategies and the overall character of the Animal System. The Cobra form highlights the speed, evasion, and precision strikes; the Boar form shows the explosive power, continuous attack, and fury... and so through each Animal System.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the summary form would be the first form you learn.

I assume a teacher may create a summary form, so his students only need to learn that summary form and skip all the forms in the system.

I have created a 84 moves long fist summary form for this purpose. My long fist system has over 16 forms. Instead of teaching 16 forms, I assume if I could just teach 1 summary form, that will save my students a lot of time.

The end result was not good. For example, a beginner just can't do a double jumping crescent kicks during his early training time.

At 1.16 - 1.18 double jumping crescent kicks.

 

[Hot Lunch]

So, from this perspective.... the summary form would be the first form you learn.

The major problem with this this is that not all schools within the same style teach katas in the same order. For example, Kobayashi Shorin-ryu teaches the Naihanchi series before the Pinan series (as Chosin Chibana did), whereas that's not the case in other Shorin-ryu lineages.

Gichin Funakoshi himself stated that (in the case of Shuri-te styles) that if a student knows the whole Heian (Pinan) series, he already has a complete working system. Notice, he didn't say Heian Shodan only; he said the whole series (e.g., you don't even kick in Heian Shodan/Pinan Nidan).

But on that same note, the Pinan series was created from Kusanku Dai and Jion - but simply broken down into smaller, more digestible parts for new learners. This is why I think they're good candidates for "summary," but would say that Sochin is better.

Jion has an easier-to-follow embusen than Kusanku Dai; but the techniques in Kusanku Dai are more basic and essential. In Shotokan, you've got roughly two years of training before you learn these two katas.

 

[wab25]

The major problem with this this is that not all schools within the same style teach katas in the same order. For example, Kobayashi Shorin-ryu teaches the Naihanchi series before the Pinan series (as Chosin Chibana did), whereas that's not the case in other Shorin-ryu lineages.

Like I said, I am looking at this a little differently.... Your example above, supports what I was trying to say. The first form / kata that a student learns, contains the foundation upon which the whole art is built. Kobayashi Shorin-ryu starts with a different kata than the rest of Shorin-ryu.... because they find the foundation of that other kata, to be more in line with the way that they see Shorin-ryu. If Kobayashi Shorin-ryu did everything exactly the same as all the other Shorin-ryu schools.... they would not need to use the term "Kobayashi."

A lot of people think that the kata / forms are a dictionary of moves that an art contains. If you can't find a technique in that art's kata, that art does not do that technique..... The problem with kata = dictionary of techniques theory is that you end up with the following dictionary: apple, boy, apple, boy, apple, boy, boy, boy, apple, boy, apple, boy, apple, boy, boy, boy, apple, boy, apple, boy. Then we get people saying, thats dumb.... it should just be: apple, boy.... and you cannot use carrot, ever, otherwise you are not doing the art.

Gichin Funakoshi himself stated that (in the case of Shuri-te styles) that if a student knows the whole Heian (Pinan) series, he already has a complete working system. Notice, he didn't say Heian Shodan only; he said the whole series (e.g., you don't even kick in Heian Shodan/Pinan Nidan).

The question was about a summary..... Taikyoku Shodan has a summary of all the principles, strategies and the core foundation of Shotokan. Are you saying that Funakoshi's complete system (Heian series) could not do a kick? Because you can not find it in one of the kata?

This shows a little of my disappointment with a lot of the Japanese martial arts that we study..... We study them like they are a collection line dances, that define all the techniques that are accepted as part of the art. One group teaches in one order, another group in a different order.... but no one knows why. How dare you learn that kata at orange belt??? We don't teach that until black belt!!! Why? Who knows????

No one stops and thinks about why did the founder select those techniques, those kata and why were they taught in that order. There is more to it than just random moves in a pattern. Too many people have been adding kata, removing kata and changing the order that they are taught in... without knowing what the kata is teaching.... but, but, but they memorized the moves and the order and everything.... We do that technique in front stance, not back stance.... Okay, but what does that change? Its just how we do it....

Instead, we need to look at the kata as grammar books, not dictionaries. They are for teaching you how to use the words, how to put them in combination how to use them to say what you want to say. No one looks at your elementary school grammar book to define what words you can and cannot use, based on what words happen to be in the grammar book. The hope is that you expand your vocabulary beyond the few words used in the book. If you learned the lessons in the book right, then you can use all the words there are, effectively in your communication. This is how the kata were intended to be used.

The kata you learn first, is the foundation of the art. It contains the core principles of the art. As you learn more of the art, you will be going deeper into those principles and ideas.... but the summary of the core principles and ideas are in that first kata. Ideally, you should take the things you learn in your first kata, and find them in your next kata.... then find how the next kata expands on the same ideas... So, kicks are not introduced in the first few kata.... what principles and ideas are? How are those principles and ideas expanded upon? How are kicks introduced to those principles and ideas? This will show you how to improve your kicks, by utilizing the core fundamentals of your art. Just because you don't find a specific technique in your set of kata, does not mean that you can't do it.... it means you need (and should) do the work to find how to apply the principles and ideas of your art, to apply that technique. It will make this technique much more effective for you.... as it will be part of your personal system.

If you want the dictionary.... just take every unique technique for you set of katas, and do each technique once... memorize the order.... play some music in the back and do it to the beat....

 

[Hot Lunch]

Like I said, I am looking at this a little differently.... Your example above, supports what I was trying to say. The first form / kata that a student learns, contains the foundation upon which the whole art is built. Kobayashi Shorin-ryu starts with a different kata than the rest of Shorin-ryu.... because they find the foundation of that other kata, to be more in line with the way that they see Shorin-ryu. If Kobayashi Shorin-ryu did everything exactly the same as all the other Shorin-ryu schools.... they would not need to use the term "Kobayashi."

A lot of people think that the kata / forms are a dictionary of moves that an art contains. If you can't find a technique in that art's kata, that art does not do that technique..... The problem with kata = dictionary of techniques theory is that you end up with the following dictionary: apple, boy, apple, boy, apple, boy, boy, boy, apple, boy, apple, boy, apple, boy, boy, boy, apple, boy, apple, boy. Then we get people saying, thats dumb.... it should just be: apple, boy.... and you cannot use carrot, ever, otherwise you are not doing the art.


The question was about a summary..... Taikyoku Shodan has a summary of all the principles, strategies and the core foundation of Shotokan. Are you saying that Funakoshi's complete system (Heian series) could not do a kick? Because you can not find it in one of the kata?

This shows a little of my disappointment with a lot of the Japanese martial arts that we study..... We study them like they are a collection line dances, that define all the techniques that are accepted as part of the art. One group teaches in one order, another group in a different order.... but no one knows why. How dare you learn that kata at orange belt??? We don't teach that until black belt!!! Why? Who knows????

No one stops and thinks about why did the founder select those techniques, those kata and why were they taught in that order. There is more to it than just random moves in a pattern. Too many people have been adding kata, removing kata and changing the order that they are taught in... without knowing what the kata is teaching.... but, but, but they memorized the moves and the order and everything.... We do that technique in front stance, not back stance.... Okay, but what does that change? Its just how we do it....

Instead, we need to look at the kata as grammar books, not dictionaries. They are for teaching you how to use the words, how to put them in combination how to use them to say what you want to say. No one looks at your elementary school grammar book to define what words you can and cannot use, based on what words happen to be in the grammar book. The hope is that you expand your vocabulary beyond the few words used in the book. If you learned the lessons in the book right, then you can use all the words there are, effectively in your communication. This is how the kata were intended to be used.

The kata you learn first, is the foundation of the art. It contains the core principles of the art. As you learn more of the art, you will be going deeper into those principles and ideas.... but the summary of the core principles and ideas are in that first kata. Ideally, you should take the things you learn in your first kata, and find them in your next kata.... then find how the next kata expands on the same ideas... So, kicks are not introduced in the first few kata.... what principles and ideas are? How are those principles and ideas expanded upon? How are kicks introduced to those principles and ideas? This will show you how to improve your kicks, by utilizing the core fundamentals of your art. Just because you don't find a specific technique in your set of kata, does not mean that you can't do it.... it means you need (and should) do the work to find how to apply the principles and ideas of your art, to apply that technique. It will make this technique much more effective for you.... as it will be part of your personal system.

If you want the dictionary.... just take every unique technique for you set of katas, and do each technique once... memorize the order.... play some music in the back and do it to the beat....

Okay, I think we have some things confused here.

There's the "summary kata," and then there's the "foundational kata."

As the Kung Fu Wang described, the "summary kata" is usually the last kata taught in your system.

In Shotokan, that kata is Unsu. The problem with Unsu is that it doesn't meet Kung Fu Wang's other criteria. Almost all of the techniques in Unsu are advanced. So if you learn Unsu and no other kata, you're going into the fight with no basics. That's a problem.

On another note, not all Shotokan schools use Taikyoku. ISKF doesn't.

Taikyoku is a "kihon kata." In other words, the focus of Taikyoku (and other kihon kata) is less about learning techniques and strategy, and more about prepping students and getting them used to kata movements before learning the Heian katas.

What I'm saying about Funakoshi and what he said about the Heian series is this: you have a complete system with the Heian series. He specifically stated the whole series.

That said, are you going into a fight with only Heian Shodan? Good luck, you can't kick. Are you going in with only Heian Sandan? I hope the attacker doesn't go for your head, because you can't high block. No one Heian kata covers all the bases. But together, they do. Hence, why Funakoshi said you have a complete system with the Heian series.

So when I'm trying to come up with a "summary kata," I'm thinking of the one kata that covers all the bases on its own, or at least comes the closest to it out of all the other kata.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

forms are a dictionary of moves that an art contains.

IMO,

- Form contain grammars (such as I love you - subject verb object, ...).
- Toolbox contains techniques (such as I, love, you, he, hate, me, ...).

The students learn "I love you" from TMA form. Students need to figure out "He hates me", ... by themselves.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the summary form would be the first form you learn.

I don't know about Karate. But for CMA, the form training has

- beginner level training.
- intermediate level training.
- advanced level training.

The summary form may contain all 3 levels training. It may not suit for beginners.

For example, in long fist system:

beginner level training:

intermediate level training:

advance level training: The combo at 0.53-0.58 can be hard to do for beginners.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A "summary form" is a form that contain the most important strategies/principles/techniques.

Usually, the "summary form" is the last form that you learn in your system. It's like a "survey paper" that you study before you start to do your own research.

The CMA praying mantis system contains such form. My long fist system doesn't contain it. Does your MA system contain it?

Sort of, but no single form can contain all the info.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sort of, but no single form can contain all the info.

That's why the summary form may contain personal flavor. A may think something is important. B may not.

For example, I think the "3 non-landing kicks 三不落地" is important training. Others may not think it's important. The day that you can still do it, the day that you are still young.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That's why the summary form contains personal flavor. A's may think something is important. B may not.

For example, I think the "3 non-landing kicks 三不落地" is important training. Others may not think it's important.

I have neither modified nor created any forms. I don’t prioritize forms in my personal practice but I don’t have anything against forms either. I see them as just one piece, my Gung fu brothers may agree or disagree with my perspective to varying degrees. I train and teach habits and principles, more so than techniques, so those may or may not be in a certain form depending on who is performing that form.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have neither modified nor created any forms. I don’t prioritize forms in my personal practice but I don’t have anything against forms either.

I also don't train forms. I only train drills.

I may have 40 combo drills that I like. If I train drill 1, drill 2, ..., drill 40, it's hard for me to remember. If I link those 40 drills into one form, it can help me to remember it. I may still not train that 40 drills form. But at least I can record on video for my personal record.

Many years ago, I tried to create a throwing form that contain 210 different throws. That task was never finished.

1. 扣 Knee seizing (KOU) N
2. 踢Forward kick (TI) N
3. 合Inner hook (HE) N - S
4. 挽 Send forward (WAN) S
5. 崩Cracking (BENG) N
6. 管 Control (GUAN) N
7. 刀Inner sickle (DAO) N
8. 揣Overhead (CHUAI)) S
9. 撞Trunk hitting (ZHUANG) N
10. 靠Advance squeeze (KAO) W
11. 切Front cut (QIE) N
12. 挑Hooking kick (TIAO) S - s
13. 掛Inner heel sweep (GUA) S - s
14. 蹩Block (BIE) – N
15. 纏Twist (CHAN), S
16. 摟 Outer Hook (LOU) S
17. 搵Waist Lift (WEN), N
18. 掰 Split (BAI) S
19. 撿Foot picking (JIAN) N
20. 裏Back inner hook (LI) E
21. 沖Inner Kick (CHONG) N
22. 彈Spring (TAN) W N
23. 捆 Tie (KUN) W
24. 抱 Embrace (BAO) E
25. ...

 

[Hot Lunch]

If I'm looking for a kata in Shotokan that covers all the basics, here's what it would need (at least, in my estimation):

- a punch
- a backfist
- a bottom fist
- an elbow strike
- a high block
- a low block
- an inside block
- an outside block
- a knife hand block
- a front kick
- a side kick
- a knee strike

That's 12 items.

Of the Heian series, Heian Nidan (or Pinan Shodan outside of Shotokan) covers the most at 9 (it's missing an outside block, a knee strike, and an elbow strike). Heian Shodan (Pinan Nidan) and Heian Godan are tied for covering the least at 5.

Kanku Dai covers 11 (no outside block). That puts it at the highest in Shotokan, beating out Sochin which also covers 9 like Heian Nidan.

To get all 12 techniques in as few kata as possible without Kanku Dai, you do this with Heian Nidan and Bassai Dai.

To get all 12 techniques using the lowest kata possible, you do this with Heian Nidan, Sandan, and Yondan.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I also don't train forms. I only train drills.

I may have 40 combo drills that I like. If I train drill 1, drill 2, ..., drill 40, it's hard for me to remember. If I link those 40 drills into one form, it can help me to remember it. I may still not train that 40 drills form. But at least I can record on video for my personal record.

Many years ago, I tried to create a throwing form that contain 210 different throws. That task was never finished.

1. 扣 Knee seizing (KOU) N
2. 踢Forward kick (TI) N
3. 合Inner hook (HE) N - S
4. 挽 Send forward (WAN) S
5. 崩Cracking (BENG) N
6. 管 Control (GUAN) N
7. 刀Inner sickle (DAO) N
8. 揣Overhead (CHUAI)) S
9. 撞Trunk hitting (ZHUANG) N
10. 靠Advance squeeze (KAO) W
11. 切Front cut (QIE) N
12. 挑Hooking kick (TIAO) S - s
13. 掛Inner heel sweep (GUA) S - s
14. 蹩Block (BIE) – N
15. 纏Twist (CHAN), S
16. 摟 Outer Hook (LOU) S
17. 搵Waist Lift (WEN), N
18. 掰 Split (BAI) S
19. 撿Foot picking (JIAN) N
20. 裏Back inner hook (LI) E
21. 沖Inner Kick (CHONG) N
22. 彈Spring (TAN) W N
23. 捆 Tie (KUN) W
24. 抱 Embrace (BAO) E
25. ...

You are far more ambitious than I am. I have a full time job and wife and 4 dogs. Between those and martial arts and other hobbies I need to sleep.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You are far more ambitious than I am. I have a full time job and wife and 4 dogs. Between those and martial arts and other hobbies I need to sleep.

I have 5 Yorkies Jaja, Kiki, Yaya, Cowboy, Bandit.

I was quite proud to create my long fist summary form until I found out that most beginner students had difficult time to learn it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

we need to look at the kata as grammar books, not dictionaries.

I agree that kata often shows grammar but can also be a common usage dictionary. There's also been discussion of summery vs foundational. Again, I think some kata can be both. Early on in this thread I mentioned Sunsu kata as being my style's summery kata, not only in concept but technique-wise as well. It just occurred to me that Sunsu contains an astounding number of different techniques. Hot Lunch presented a list (post #17) of 12 moves minimum needed to represent the basics. Sunsu has many, many more. But then, Sunsu is not a basic kata.

Strikes: Single punch, combo punches, double punch, back hand chop, forehand chop, backfist, horizontal spear hand, vertical spear hand, lo palm heel, hi palm heel, double palm heel, elbows and spinning elbow.

Blocks: Hi parry, low parry, mid, high and lo block, mid open hand block, double block, circular block and elbow block.

Kicks: Front snap, front heel thrust, side, oblique, cross-over stomp, modified round house and knee.

Stances: Seisan, seiunchin, cat, forward, twist. 18 total changes of direction.

Grappling: Joint locks/breaks/takedowns, grab and holds, throw.

Sunsu kata may be the record holder (or at least a contender) for sheer variety of techniques. There's a reason it's taught last. It is an extensive repository of techniques (but not complete). When taken together they illustrate many principles and foundations of the style.