Disarm Drills

[Shoto Tiger]

Hi all,

Sorry for being a bit thick but I really would like some help with this.

The first 5 disarms. I always seem to mix up 2 and 4. I appear to have this huge mental block for some reason and its beginning to get frustrating!!! Has anyone got a 'method' at all of remembering this? I know its silly, but its bugging me now. I know repetitive training will help, but I seem to be remembering the more advanced stuff and picking up speed etc and completely losing the plot when going through these disarms.

I am ok with the order of disarms up to 12 - just these 2!!!

Any pneumonic perhaps to remember it?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Melanie, :asian:

Hi, for disarm number two I assume you insert the hand and on disarm four you insert the cane. I try to remember the order of the insertions. Hand then Cane for disarms numbers two and four.

Now to confuse the issue, or to clarify I hope, on Disarm one you 'insert' the cane. On Disarm three you insert the hand. These are similar angles of attacks. On disarm six and disarm ten, for six you insert the cane and on ten you insert the hand. On disarm seven you insert the cane and on disarm eleven you insert the hand.

So, as I count it of the four pairs that have obvious similar angles of attack, only number two and four do you insert the hand first.

Now Melanie, here is something I tell all my students and anyone I work with. I do not care what disarm you do from which angle. If you block properly and survive the attack, this alone allows you to continue to the next move. Now, if you can pull off a disarm but it is not the 'correct' or the optimum for the angle, I do not care. All I do is go, 'nice number X for disarm number Y, here.', and I strike Y again. So, if you always do number two disarm from all twelve angles, because it is your favorite while you spar, I care not. If you have the timing and technique to pull it off this is great. But, for demonstration and the capability to teach others, you need to learn the 'correct' or optimum disarms for each angle.

Sorry for the run on, Train Well

Rich


*************************************
I just love this edit function :rofl:

Shameless plug time
If you go to Dan Anderson's Website you'll find that he wrote a CD ROM book on the subject of disarms.
*************************************

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Melanie,
Disarm #2 is done with the arm and disarm #4 is done with the stick.

Try this out. On #2 snake the check hand arm around your partner's stick arm and on the repeat of it, snake the cane around his arm. You'll find that it is easier for that high of a strike to snake the arm.

Shameless plug time
If you go to my website you'll find that I wrote a CD ROM book on the subject of disarms.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[dearnis.com]

You may not realize this, but if you go to Dan Anderson's web site you can find his book on Modern Arnis disarms....

:rofl:

 

[arnisador]

I think Mr. Parsons has given some good advice and I especially agree that if it works, use it! Mr. Anderson also makes a good point that the hand seems more comfortable on the higher strike.

I remember it because the palasut type motion you do on #2 is such a basic, fundamental technique that it makes sense for it to come early in the sequence. Inserting the cane I consider a more advanced technique. I don't know how to reconcile this with Mr. Parson's point that on the other side it's the other order!

It's confusing. If only someone would write a book about it!

 

[Dan Anderson]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Thanks, guys, for the plug. It was unexpected and I laughed out loud when I saw it. I shouldn't do that in the public library.
Dan

PS - Melanie, I'd take their advice. If you can't trust these guys, who can you trust?

 

[Shoto Tiger]

Thanks all.

I really wasn't looking forward to looking at the responses to that question. I was worried either no one would respond or tell me to stop being so stupid!

Excellent advice...I will be checking out the book too.

I hope to at least remember your advice when I see my instructor tomorrow!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador

I think Mr. Parsons has given some good advice and I especially agree that if it works, use it! Mr. Anderson also makes a good point that the hand seems more comfortable on the higher strike.

I remember it because the palasut type motion you do on #2 is such a basic, fundamental technique that it makes sense for it to come early in the sequence. Inserting the cane I consider a more advanced technique. I don't know how to reconcile this with Mr. Parson's point that on the other side it's the other order!

It's confusing. If only someone would write a book about it!

Arnisador,

(* Trip Splat!!!, That is the sound of me falling flat on my face. MY expectations in trying to answer your question. *)

First, let me say that 'inserting' the cane is more difficult in my mind also.

Assumptions: Right hand is holding the cane.
When I say his or him or other male gender specific terms from English, I mean it to be gender non-specific, or to apply to both genders.

The Number one Disarm, if dissected has at that angle the cane is in place for the insertion and the hand is the shortest motion to the outside of the cane. Thus the optimum disarm for this angle.

The number three disarm requires the person executing the technique to replace the cane with the hand. This execution requires further understanding. I did say replace, otherwise you would be reaching across yourself and your cane would be tucked under your own left arm pit. With the cane under your arm pit you have used two of your weapons to tie up only one of his. IF you remove the cane with out the hand present the opponent may move his cane and you would not be as aware of it. Hence the need to replace the cane with the hand as you insert the hand. This means you remain in contact with your opponent, and by bringing the cane back to your right side you are able to defend against the opponents left side if he attacks with it. Therefore, I personally agree that the number three disarm is slightly more difficult then the number one disarm. I believe the root to be that the inside hand has the easier approach to the disarm.

The number two disarm is executed with the hand insertion. As Dan Anderson states this would be more difficult to insert the cane at this angle. Also, if you notice what I said about number one also applies here as well. The left hand is the inside hand and would allow the shortest approach to the disarm and allows you to have your right hand cane available to defend against the opponents left side attack. One the number four disarm, the angle allows for the cane insertion much easier, and this also teaches another aspect, of cross attacking the opponent to remain on the outside to remove the threat of the left side counter attack.

On disarm number six, you cover the tip of the thrust with your left hand to avoid the hook thrust. This puts the right hand and the cane on the inside and the closest to the wrist for the attack to disarm. On disarm number ten, since it is up high to the face and/or the eye it may not have the hook potential. Note: In my mind it is still there which is why I said 'MAY NOT'. To cover this potential still block the same way with
the left hand on the tip and then insert the left once the tip threat has been dealt with.

On disarm number seven, the cane is inserted, as the left hand is used to cover the tip of the thrust and the cane is the inside weapon. Yes this does mean you are slightly crossed. This allows for the left hand to reach under the opponents cane and to rotate it around your own cane to execute the number seven disarm. The number eleven disarm is blocked the same way with the left hand covering the tip of the thrust. After the tip threat has been eliminated, the left hand is inserted to attack the wrist and execute the disarm.


Now why would Remy Presas, have it so that the cane insertion, which is usually considered harder to execute be the first of the pair on three of the four similar angle pairs. I believe in my limited understanding and insight with the training I have received, in Modern Arnis, that Remy Presas did not look at this insertion of the cane as more difficult, but instead, looked at the closest and shortest approach to the disarm, and here we go, 'Goes with the Flow'.

I hope I have not fallen completely on my face in the mud.

Best Wishes

Rich
:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Rich,
Next time you go into lengthy explanations of movement, insert some photos. I passed out trying to follow you.

Melanie,
Who is your instructor and where do you train? I'm curious.

Yours,

Dan Anderson

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Rich,
Next time you go into lengthy explanations of movement, insert some photos. I passed out trying to follow you.
. . .
Yours,

Dan Anderson

SHAMELESS PLUG

By The e-book by Dan Anderson for the Pictures.
Why reproduce something, unless I can add significant detail, insight or something else?

I did say I would fall flat on my face. I did not know I would knock everyone else out?!?

Rich

 

[Shoto Tiger]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Melanie,
Who is your instructor and where do you train? I'm curious.

Yours,

Dan Anderson

Hello,

I believe the lineage is Remy Presas taught Rick Clark - who taught my Sensei Zoltan Dienes and class is based at Sussex University in Falmer, near Brigthon, East Sussex. Do you recognise either name?

 

[arnisador]

Rick Clark is indeed a Modern Arnis black belt in Terre Haute, IN, but to the best of my knowledge he does not teach Modern Arnis. He concentrates on his own pressure point fighting style. He recently released a book on it.

See also:
http://www.ussu.net/shotokan/instruct.htm

 

[Shoto Tiger]

Hi,

You're absolutely right he doesn't normally teach Arnis. When he was here for his last tour he did an extra couple of hours the day after the PP seminar and spent some time with the class doing some Arnis. To my knowledge he didn't do it all the way round the tour, just did it with us as we had been doing Arnis for about 6 weeks then.

Perhaps he taught Zoltan as a favour? I'm not sure, I'll ask Sensei this week.

 

[dearnis.com]

as far as the use of the thrusting inserts in disarms, A reason (not the only one, and I cant say if it was Professor's reason...) is to give a relative beginner something that they can relate the angle six and seven thrust to right away.
(Yes, there is an obvious connection to the short blade, but I dont show that to people right away; yes, they are dynamite lines in free flow, have great stick sparring application, and are an essential part of, ummm, you know, those various semi-free style trapping and striking drills that go by so many names...)
But none of these are beginner level applications. I think Rich is right that the thrusts can be seen as the shortest route to a goal, but I also think that they underlie a great deal of the more advanced material and they are deliberately there to "sneak them in" early, and in a way that shouldn't cause too much confusion.
(at least I think I agree with Rich; I know I agree with Dan that my head was spinning after that post.....:rofl: )
Chad

 

[arnisandyz]

"The number three disarm requires the person executing the technique to replace the cane with the hand. This execution requires further understanding. I did say replace, otherwise you would be reaching across yourself and your cane would be tucked under your own left arm pit. With the cane under your arm pit you have used two of your weapons to tie up only one of his. IF you remove the cane with out the hand present the opponent may move his cane and you would not be as aware of it. Hence the need to replace the cane with the hand as you insert the hand. This means you remain in contact with your opponent, and by bringing the cane back to your right side you are able to defend against the opponents left side if he attacks with it."

Just curious on this. Can you not hit through so the cane ends up under your left armpit as the left hand checks (replaces) the cane by reaching over the top, then snaking counter-clockwise? There is a moment during the snake where the opponents hand is positioned in such a way that a modified #4 strike going more towards the opponents body (or a punyo strip) will eject the stick the same time the hit occurs. Footwork will zone you away from the opponents left hand.

Thanks

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisandyz

"The number three disarm requires the person executing the technique to replace the cane with the hand. This execution requires further understanding. I did say replace, otherwise you would be reaching across yourself and your cane would be tucked under your own left arm pit. With the cane under your arm pit you have used two of your weapons to tie up only one of his. IF you remove the cane with out the hand present the opponent may move his cane and you would not be as aware of it. Hence the need to replace the cane with the hand as you insert the hand. This means you remain in contact with your opponent, and by bringing the cane back to your right side you are able to defend against the opponents left side if he attacks with it."

Just curious on this. Can you not hit through so the cane ends up under your left armpit as the left hand checks (replaces) the cane by reaching over the top, then snaking counter-clockwise? There is a moment during the snake where the opponents hand is positioned in such a way that a modified #4 strike going more towards the opponents body (or a punyo strip) will eject the stick the same time the hit occurs. Footwork will zone you away from the opponents left hand.

Thanks

arnisandyz,

(* De-cloaking, unable to not answer. *)

You are correct. As long as you execute the proper foot work to zone out of the way of the left hand of the opponent. Many people do not grasp the footwork easily, in my opinion. If you do not have the correct footwork you can easily be countered and end up in a bad position. As getting beginners to move their cane, their 'live' hand and having the footwork correct all at the same time is difficult in person. I attempted to address the issue as simply as possible, for me, with words and no Pictures, as Dan Anderson pointed out. Once again, I say the beginning student, which is what I was trying in my long winded reply to address.

I did not mean to imply that the explanation, I gave was the only correct answer. Only a solution to a question.

Best Regards

Rich


(* Cloaking *):asian:

 

[arnisandyz]

Mr Parsons,

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you on the fact that new students need things broken down until they get basics down. I took your reply out of context, when I read back to the beginning posts, I realized the person who asked the question may be somewhat new to FMA.

Yes,there are many solutions to a problem. Some of my instructors would elaborate on "you can do dis, or you can do dat, but for now, don't do dat just do dis. I think what they were trying to show is that no one technique should be treated as solution, but just another way should the circumstance permit.

Having the beginning student snake with the live hand and have the stick ready for the left hand is good for the reasons you mentioned. But also I think is good for beginning students to do the other way as well as it forces them to see why they NEED footwork, even if they can't pull it off at first.

Regards.

 

[Shoto Tiger]

Hiya,

Just thought I'd mention I have been putting to practice some of the suggestions here and managed to get through two whole classes without botching up the order of the disarms.

Thanks for all your input.

I suppose it doesn't help me much that I am training 3-4 times a week with an Escrima Instructor who is learning Modern Arnis at the same class as myself. After we have gone through what we did at our last class we practise other flow drills etc. Although this is helping plenty with the speed, co-ordination, etc, it probably isn't helping me remember everything in good order. Funny though...once I get a stick in me hand I just don't care! I really do enjoy stick work and although I am probably being taught stuff a little too advanced for me at the moment, whilst I can still cause more injury to him, rather than myself I think I will continue

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
Mr Parsons,

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you on the fact that new students need things broken down until they get basics down. I took your reply out of context, when I read back to the beginning posts, I realized the person who asked the question may be somewhat new to FMA.

Yes,there are many solutions to a problem. Some of my instructors would elaborate on "you can do dis, or you can do dat, but for now, don't do dat just do dis. I think what they were trying to show is that no one technique should be treated as solution, but just another way should the circumstance permit.

Having the beginning student snake with the live hand and have the stick ready for the left hand is good for the reasons you mentioned. But also I think is good for beginning students to do the other way as well as it forces them to see why they NEED footwork, even if they can't pull it off at first.

Regards.

arnisandyz,

After reviewing this old thread, and I would like to add some more.

Yes, the foot work is good to have from the beginning. And I think it is good to learn it. The timing for the counter to number three where you reach the left ahnd across and grab either your stick or the opponents stick and pull it towards you to bring the opponent slightly bent over and tied up. If you follow the example I gave with the same footwork (* Correct *) for both, your stick is on top and much easier to be a threat. Yes if you strick, the opponent can pass the cane, yet this puts you in the same direction as the disarm and then you can accomplish the disarm with one less counter available to your opponent. Now like we both said it was just a solution, and I agree that proper footwork is a appropriate to have from the beginning.

With Respect and Best Regards
:asian:

 

[dohap]

Mr Anderson,
When ordering the books I cannot find my country on the list...
Poland...
I hope I can do it another way
Regards
Tomek