Direct qigong experiences...

[yilisifu]

I have an old friend (an American) who demonstrated his ability to withstand blows. He easily took a punch in the throat. Then one in the temple. Then a baseball bat to the back of his neck...and then a kick to the groin which lifted him into the air.

None of these things affected him even slightly.

However, he refused to give public demonstrations because he feared that he would be viewed as some kind of "circus freak" or performer. I agree with him.

But I know what I saw. I was standing next to him when he did it.

He could not, however, emit chi for purposes of striking. So we swapped information.

I understand the argument about "no touch" knockouts and all that sort of thing. These people are charaltans.
On the other hand, there ARE people who can deliver what appears to be a light blow with sledgehammer effects. There ARE people who can take your very best shot and grin at you. Acupuncture is real (I am myself an acupuncturist); it is not a placebo.

Chi CAN be felt at a distance (usually measured in inches) by those who are sensitive to it. But like I said, the circus performers are just trying to get into people's wallets. And they're very good at it, too. The Shao-lin monk "show" is one such circus and it's a shame that the Chinese have allowed this sort of garbage to occur. These men are not monks, nor are they even martial artists.

The two camps; the fakes and the real thing(s) have caused many people to doubt the reality of intrinsic energy. I am here to say that it is real. No, I cannot prove it scientifically, but like love or God, I know it exists.

Randi is a classical debunker. He's done some worthwhile debunking, but he has a tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Black holes have never been proven to exist. Neither have neutrinos or quarks. They exist MATHEMATICALLY on paper and in theory and we can "see" their effects, but no one has actually ever seen or measured one. However, Randi lacks the fortitude to argue with well-known astro-physicists about the reality of such things. He's still a stage magician in his heart.
The effects of chi can be felt and sometimes seen. This should be as indicative of it's existance as that of neutrinos or black holes...

 

[lhommedieu]

(I posted this on another thread, but it seems to fit in here as well.)

I have the greatest respect for Randi; his expose of Philippine “psychic surgeons,” to give just one example from so many others, provides a valuable service insofar as it shows how easily charlatans can manipulate vulnerable people for money. However, there are scores of traditional martial artists and healers who don’t perform parlor tricks and don’t rip people off with slight-of-hand - and yet subscribe to beliefs that are pre-scientific. There are scores of beliefs that are unscientific as well, e.g., the belief in God or that love is a necessary component of a sucessful marriage. What we are really talking about here is the incommensurability of cultural concepts. I’ve been knocked out while boxing and knocked down doing Chinese internal arts; both resulted in “horizontal meditation” and both would explain the “why” of what happened in metaphors that are incommensurate with each other. I’ve also treated back pain with Motrin, on the one hand, and have gotten incredible results through a combination of acupuncture, craniosacral therapy, bonesetting, and Chinese herbs. The ontological foundations of each approach are entirely different, as are the languages used to describe them. And to argue that one worked because it was based on Western science and other merely because of the placebo effect is very questionable, in my opinion: acute, spasmodic back pain usually doesn’t respond to sugar pills of any variety.

Western science is a wonderful thing. If I ever needed necessary surgery or a carcinoma treated I’d head for the nearest specialist. On the other hand, I’ve seen many, many people who had surgery for back pain that ended up much worse off from the experience – a healthy dose of skepticism about what the “experts” say is just as warranted as any other kind.

With respect to Chinese medicine, consider the following:

Eisenberg, D. Encounters With Qi: Exploring Chinese Medicine
Rose, K. et. al. A Brief History of Qi
Kleinman, A. Writing at the Margin: Discourse Between Anthropology and Medicine

Best,

Steve Lamade


__________________
Steve Lamade
San Miguel Eskrima

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by yilisifu ...... The effects of chi can be felt and sometimes seen. This should be as indicative of it's existance as that of neutrinos or black holes...

The question is how can you tell if some one's claim of such capability is real or phony.

 

[lhommedieu]

Originally posted by KennethKu
The question is how can you tell if some one's claim of such capability is real or phony.

You can't without spending a lot of time in a particular practice. I would advocate the practice of an internal art that pays attention to the alignment of tissues in the body to generate power. This to me is a genuine expression of what we're talking about. As a general rule however, I always consider the fact that those who make claims (of any kind) are generally phony. They have a product to sell. Those who can generally don't make any claims - they just fight well or heal people effectively.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
You can't without spending a lot of time in a particular practice.

I don't mean this to refer to you, but every charlatan utters something along that EXACT line !!

I would advocate the practice of an internal art that pays attention to the alignment of tissues in the body to generate power.

How can you "align" your tissues? You can't. Muscles contract and relax. They don't realign.

This to me is a genuine expression of what we're talking about. As a general rule however, I always consider the fact that those who make claims (of any kind) are generally phony. They have a product to sell. Those who can generally don't make any claims - they just fight well or heal people effectively.

Unless Qi gong phenomena can be verified, it is going to remain on the periphery as it has been.

they just fight well or heal people effectively

This is a claim.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by yilisifu ....
On the other hand, there ARE people who can deliver what appears to be a light blow with sledgehammer effects. There ARE people who can take your very best shot and grin at you.

This should not be hard to prove.

Acupuncture is real (I am myself an acupuncturist); it is not a placebo.

You have vets performing this on dogs now. I saw the acu chart in my vet clinic. What's your take on this?

Chi CAN be felt at a distance (usually measured in inches) by those who are sensitive to it....... The two camps; the fakes and the real thing(s) have caused many people to doubt the reality of intrinsic energy. I am here to say that it is real. No, I cannot prove it scientifically, but like love or God, I know it exists.

We appreciate your insight. My point is, how do you tell the fake from the real? While Chi may be real, but how do you verify the practitioner? Unless you have an objective method of verification, it is a mess.

The effects of chi can be felt and sometimes seen. This should be as indicative of it's existance as that of neutrinos or black holes...

1. How are you going to keep DKI from hiding behind the same argument?

2. If this is a physical phenomenon, then it should be reproducible and verifiable independently. It doesn't require the involvement of Randi's organization.

I am not dead set denying the existence of Chi. It is just that Chi gong practitioners should explore some way to produce verifiable result. That will definitely advance the practice.

 

[chufeng]

KennethKu,

Acupuncture works on dogs and other animals because it IS NOT a matter of belief...it works.

How can you tell if someone is a fake?
Good question...I think it gets back to what was said earlier...if they push the "energy" thing and use it as a primary means to sell something, you should be suspicious.

Those who practice qigong, do it for themselves...they aren't trying to PROVE anything and spend their time training instead of looking for proof or ways to verify what they do.

As far as absorbing punches and dishing out sledgehammer blows that look like soft techniques...if you are ever in the Seattle Tacoma area, drop me a line (or YiLiQuan1 a line) and we'll show you. You will have your verification first-hand...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

Mr Hachey,

I appreciate the invitation and I will definitely drop by to pay my respect if I am in the region.

Ok, I don't know squat about acupuncture. I have witnessed it performed on a patient but I didn't have the gut to have the needle on me, eventhough I have been slashed and stabbed before.

Since acupuncture was not developed for dogs , I am surprised how it got transplanted on to dogs. I should do some basic homework on the subject first. But I will take your words that it has merits on pets, and not necessary a fraudulent scheme by my vets.

You brought up a very good point - follow the smoking gun. The smoking gun is the financial stake. If the practitioner is not going for fame nor fortune, that increases his/her credibility.

:asian:

 

[lhommedieu]

Originally posted by KennethKu
I don't mean this to refer to you, but every charlatan utters something along that EXACT line !!

Of course every charlatan says that they can do what they can do due to a lot of practice. So do olympic athletes, concert pianists, and professional politicians. What I meant was that if you are interested in direct Qigong experiences (the nominal topic of this thread), then you should practice Qigong. If, after a year of practice, you still think it's ********, then report back and say so.

How can you "align" your tissues? You can't. Muscles contract and relax. They don't realign.

Tissue has structure. Tendons and ligaments, for example, are composed of collagen and elastin fibers that are subject to wear and tear due to age and trauma, resulting in fibers that are lax (loss of plasticity), torn, abraded, and misaligned, etc. The point of many Qigongs is to heal these injuries by placing the body into highly specific positions wherein the fibers are gradually placed in allowed to relax, strengthen, and heal, thereby allowing the body to respond more efficiently.

In addition, connective tissue is related to phagocytic and immunocompetent cells, as well as cells that produce pharmacologically active substances that are important in modulating inflamation. Qigong is also practiced to move fluid through a swollen area, wherein movement is constrained due to the accumulation of fluid (as seen in immunological or trauma responses). Some tendons have a sheath that is made of two layers, with a cavity of viscous fluid between the two layers. This fluid contains water, proteins, glycosaminoglycans, glycoproteins, and ions, that serve as a lubricant to provide an easy sliding movement of the tendon within its sheath. Qigong promotes the balance of fluid to facilitate the movement of tendons. Connective tissue carries nutrients from blood to various cells in the body, and moves metabolic wastes from the cells to the blood. The use of Qigong to regulate the breath and stimulate blood flow helps to promote this exchange.

Unless Qi gong phenomena can be verified, it is going to remain on the periphery as it has been.

That would be fine. Your quarrel with "energy palms" etc., is a staw man argument. What I mean by Qigong is an intimate familiarity with the way my body feels, reacts, and moves. The Chinese use a terminology to describe this type of familiarity (being "in" your body) that is incommensurate with the vocabulary of 21st century science - a science that has been dominated by Cartesian assumptions about mind/body duality since the 17th Century.

This is a claim.

Most of what I have said is composed of claims. I don't need double-blind studies to confirm the validity of assumptions that make up 99.9% of my daily life (for example, that when I stand up I'll still have a floor under me). To act otherwise would be to not live life, but remain a spectator dependent on someone else's ontology.

For that matter, your assumption that Qigong could only be a valuable phenomenon if and only if it was verified by scientific research is also a claim.

 

[lhommedieu]

Sorry - I haven't mastered the "quote" thing yet. Most of my response is in the box after the paragraph surrounded by

. I have learned how to change font.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[KennethKu]

I am not going to address what you said regarding Qi Gong.

But I will tell you how to use the quote function instead. lol

Ok,
[ quote ]
Your text here.
[ /quote ]

Now, you do not want to put the spaces after the "[" and before the "]". I need to put them there to show you the syntax.

Take out the space, that will result in:

Your text here.

 

[lhommedieu]

Thank you. That was driving me nuts.

Best,

Steve

 

[Cruentus]

However, if someone makes claim of producing a physical phenomenon, then it must be reproducible and verifiable independently.

I totally agree, which is why I don't buy many of the claims out there.

However, Medical Science has been able to explain many things about Chi; things that the "ancients" have known in different terms for 1000's of years. This is why the UCLA medical school has a program for acupuncture. This is why in a humanistic psychology course (actually when I was in high school back in 1995) we watched a video tape of various different internal energy "phenomenoms" that were performed under controlled environments. One was the filming of brain surgury in Korea, where the patient was conscious the entire time. They used acupuncture to shut off her pain receptors, and she was able to communicate with the surgeons during the surgury, which made the proceedure much safer.

Another film was of a "Yogi" from India who was placed under scrutiny of scientests in a controlled environment. He was able to lower his breath and heart rate to only about 2 breaths per minute, and his heart rate was under 6 beats per minute; for a sustained period of time.

Another was a film of Tibetin Buddhist monks who went to a cave in 3 degrees below zero weather. Through intense meditation, these 4 monks where able to not only sustain there body tempurature, but elivate it enough to drench there clothing in sweat. I think they were about 103 degrees F. if I am not mistaken.

The list goes on. So, there really is no need to try to "debunk" the pheonomenom of "Chi". The proof already exists, you just have to find it. A University with the reputation of UCLA would not offer an acupuncture program, a study based on Biological energy (Chi) if it did not exist. To say that there is no possible way that Chi exists in this day and age is like saying the world is flat.

The issue with me isn't "debunking" Chi, it's seperating truth from false claims regarding it. I respect your need for imperical evidence; I am the same way. I would actually rather talk to someone like yourself who doesn't believe everything he hears, as opposed to someone who will believe anything you feed them. I'll say it again: the empirical evidence is out there for Chi, you just have to find it. My issue of you bringing up Randi's website to challenge these people to "prove" the Chi phenomenom, is that it is not telling the whole story. Randi's challenge, to my understanding, is for those who claim to "defy" modern science. All of the Chi examples I have listed, as amazing as they are, do not defy science at all. They where all under controlled environments, with scientific explainations behind them all. This didn't disprove or discredit "Chi", it just demystified it a little. With Randi's Challange, we don't know how many people from Chinese medicine (or others who can do phenomenal things with internal energy) have been turned down by Randi for whatever reason. I'm sure there were quite a few. Randi's Organization isn't going to throw a million away, no matter what people might think. Even if someone can do the most amazing feat in the world, if it can be hypothisised by science, then they are not getting paid. It's just that simple. So, many people who are the "real deal" won't even bother, because they know that they aren't claiming to "defy physics."

In terms of "No Touch Knock Outs" or "Chi Projection," I actuall don't doubt the possablity. I doubt the abilities of those who are out there claiming it, however. And I refuse to believe that someone can do it until it is imperically proven in a controlled environment. So, I am with you on that one.

In regards to realigning tissue: Tissue (including muscle, bone, tendons, etc.) is very plyable. We manipulate tissue all day long; when we excersise, breath, etc. If we couldn't realign tissue, then Chiropractors, Bone Specialists, and Physical Therapists would be out of business. Granted, the human body has it's basic structure, but strengthening and realinging tissue within that structure is a very real thing.

A note on the medical community: The medical community is controlled by the private sector, which means that our healthcare is under a very capitalistic structure. I'm not argueing for or against this here, for there is good and bad to this. But given this fact, this is why things like surgury "without anastetic," and holistic methods of healing aren't readily available to the public in this country. Many of these methods, simply, are not profitable. As an financial consultant I can tell you that the medical realm is one of the largest industries we have. Think about all of the drug companies, supply companies, insurance companies, educational entities, and professionals who are involved. The people who are CEO's of these entities are smart business men rather then doctors. Think about all of the anasteseologlists with 6-figure salaries who would be out of a job if surgury aided with acupuncture was the norm. Or how many drug companies would be losing profits if you could get the same results through an herb concoction and a change in diet instead of some of their expensive drugs.

The point of all of this is that things are the way they are in the medical community because of profit and business, not practicality. Alternative methods will be introduced very slowly, and only on a "need" basis, or if it can be profitable. I am not discounting Western Medicine, but I am asking people to remember that just because western methods don't readily utilize "Chi," or other "holistic" methods, this doesn't discredit the existance of these methods. There are motives behind everything.

Now unfortunatily the "Frauds" will hide behind this point, and until these methods are readily accepted into the medical community there is no way to regulate these methods, or to activily seperate the fakes from the genuine.