Different styles of Karate?

[opr1945]

Six months ago, before I started Karate, I thought there was Karate. I knew that TaeKwonDo was korean and different and Tang soo do and Judo, sometimes called jujuisto, BJJ. In the 60's I was at an Air Force School and we had Thai solders there for training anf I knew they could kick box. That was the world of Martial Arts for me. I also thought that every Karate school taught the same moves. Boy, I can see that I was very ignorant.

At the Dojo I found this list on the wall, Pedigree 1. The style I am studying is on Pedigree 2. The chart is probably out date and there are more styles. Especially when you add that two Dojo's may claim to teach the same style but in reality they are difference from each other. Some difference may be minor, but other may be bigger. I guess if they know there are major differences they call it a new named style.

Since the new changes, additions, corrections are recent they don't have hundreds of years of tradition and application behind them just the new leaders personal ideas of what is an improvement.

So in Karate alone there are virtually an infinate varity of styles and the number of styles is growing every time a Sensi decides to "improve the Karate" they are teaching? Not to mention other martial arts from around the world. I even saw an article on the style of martial art practiced by Batman in the movies!

I really had it wrong. I am learning more and more about less and less. I once met a college professor who was an expert in the first 7 minutes of the renaissance.


So, is the above basically correct?

 

[Gyakuto]

First ‘mystry‘ and now we have to see ‘stryles’ for days and days? 😭

 

[MuayJitsu]

No idea, that chart me a headache. Imo none of this really matters just go train and have fun people get to bogged down in history and tradition and evolution. To me as I’m getting a workout and I’m learning some stuff that’s all that matters

 

[hoshin1600]

I would add that within the Uechi lineage, Shohei and Konan are not technically different but a result of politics. This holds true for most styles, that the style will splinter because of political reasons not so much for technical improvements. It only looks that way from the outside. For every Uechi branch I have known they are all (mostly) technically the same. I'm the only exception I know of, with Hoshinkan. That is because Uechi has a dogmatic view on the curriculum. My own personal journey has been digging into the roots of the style and I have cut out most of the "1960's karate" and incorporated the Chinese roots.

 

[opr1945]

Just notices mistyping in title of thread. sorry. The edit button is gone. will try to do better in future.

Just realized this edit button is still here, how long does it last?

When people ask if i'm in my second childhood, I say you mean there is another one??///

 

[Hot Lunch]

At the Dojo I found this list on the wall, Pedigree 1. The style I am studying is on Pedigree 2. The chart is probably out date and there are more styles. Especially when you add that two Dojo's may claim to teach the same style but in reality they are difference from each other. Some difference may be minor, but other may be bigger. I guess if they know there are major differences they call it a new named style.

From what I've seen, Japanese styles tend to be more "regulated" than Okinawan styles; so you've find more variation with Okinawan styles than within Japanese styles. A JKA Shodan knows what a SKIF and an ISKF Shodan knows, and vice versa.

Does a Shorin-ryu Shorinkan Shodan know what a Shorin-ryu Seibukan Shodan knows, or vice versa? I doubt it.

 

[Buka]

Six months ago, before I started Karate, I thought there was Karate. I knew that TaeKwonDo was korean and different and Tang soo do and Judo, sometimes called jujuisto, BJJ. In the 60's I was at an Air Force School and we had Thai solders there for training anf I knew they could kick box. That was the world of Martial Arts for me. I also thought that every Karate school taught the same moves. Boy, I can see that I was very ignorant.

At the Dojo I found this list on the wall, Pedigree 1. The style I am studying is on Pedigree 2. The chart is probably out date and there are more styles. Especially when you add that two Dojo's may claim to teach the same style but in reality they are difference from each other. Some difference may be minor, but other may be bigger. I guess if they know there are major differences they call it a new named style.

Since the new changes, additions, corrections are recent they don't have hundreds of years of tradition and application behind them just the new leaders personal ideas of what is an improvement.

So in Karate alone there are virtually an infinate varity of styles and the number of styles is growing every time a Sensi decides to "improve the Karate" they are teaching? Not to mention other martial arts from around the world. I even saw an article on the style of martial art practiced by Batman in the movies!

I really had it wrong. I am learning more and more about less and less. I once met a college professor who was an expert in the first 7 minutes of the renaissance.


So, is the above basically correct?

I enjoyed reading that second chart. I worked out with some of those guys even though I wasn’t a Ueichi guy.

 

[opr1945]

FYI: I found the chart posted above for sale. If anyone is interested.
Karateka Keizu (#25) A large 23" x 30" heavy card stock wall chart to follow up the second edition of "Unante", includes all of the updated genealogies. Very nicely printed and laid out chart for home or dojo. Not available in a set. Price: $30.00; $6.00 US ground shipping.

W.M. Hawley - Culture Charts

Culture charts available for purchase from the W.M. Hawley Library

www.wmhawley.com

I di not find an on line picture of the chart. But my Googe-Fu skill level is not very high

 

[Tony Dismukes]

First ‘mystry‘ and now we have to see ‘stryles’ for days and days? 😭

I went ahead and corrected the typo in the thread title. Moderator privilege.

 

[opr1945]

Thank Youfor corrections. If I see them befor edit link goes away I make corrections on my own. Some times I don't see them until it is to late for me to correct.

NOTE: The chart I posted above appears to start around 1770's and continues until shortly before year 2000. The link is to an update version which I have not seen.

 

[isshinryuronin]

From what I've seen, Japanese styles tend to be more "regulated" than Okinawan styles; so you've find more variation with Okinawan styles than within Japanese styles.

This is true. The Okinawan masters, while they knew and sometimes trained together, were content to do their own thing and had no urge to codify and regulate their art as did the Japanese. There was some serious discussion in the late 1930's of unifying their art a little more, (and this was just in response to Japanese pressure) but WWII interrupted this and the matter was not seriously taken up again.

Does a Shorin-ryu Shorinkan Shodan know what a Shorin-ryu Seibukan Shodan knows, or vice versa? I doubt it.

Why do you doubt it? First of all, your comparison is a little off. Shorinkan and Seibukan are more organizations than styles. The former being an offshoot (subspecies or race) of Chibana's kobayashi shorinryu and the latter being an offshoot of Kyan's shobayashi shorinryu. Ko- and sho- bayashi lineages have the same kata for the most part and while there are differences, the kata are easily recognizable as being the same kata. So, the answer to your question is yes, they pretty much know the same stuff while having their own identity and subtleties

are not technically different but a result of politics.

Just as in Uechi ryu, the same goes for branches within the shorinryu and other karate families.
.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Why do you doubt it? First of all, your comparison is a little off. Shorinkan and Seibukan are more organizations than styles.

I know that, and that was my point. There are more variations between organizations within Okinawan styles than Japanese.

The former being an offshoot (subspecies or race) of Chibana's kobayashi shorinryu and the latter being an offshoot of Kyan's shobayashi shorinryu. Ko- and sho- bayashi lineages have the same kata for the most part and while there are differences, the kata are easily recognizable as being the same kata. So, the answer to your question is yes, they pretty much know the same stuff while having their own identity and subtleties

Just as in Uechi ryu, the same goes for branches within the shorinryu and other karate families.
.

I do know that Seibukan has Seisan and Wansu, and Shorinkan does not.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I went ahead and corrected the typo in the thread title. Moderator privilege.

I tried to do the same, and spent a couple minutes trying to figure out where the typo was, before giving up and continuing down the thread

 

[isshinryuronin]

I do know that Seibukan has Seisan and Wansu, and Shorinkan does not.

Kyan and Chibana's styles have naihanchis, pinans, passai, Kusanku, gojushiho and I think Chinto in common. I could not find evidence of Chibana's kobayshi having seisan or wansu. He may have known them (and others) but decided not to include them into his curriculum. This was true for other masters as well.

 

[Buka]

This is true. The Okinawan masters, while they knew and sometimes trained together, were content to do their own thing and had no urge to codify and regulate their art as did the Japanese. There was some serious discussion in the late 1930's of unifying their art a little more, (and this was just in response to Japanese pressure) but WWII interrupted this and the matter was not seriously taken up again.

Why do you doubt it? First of all, your comparison is a little off. Shorinkan and Seibukan are more organizations than styles. The former being an offshoot (subspecies or race) of Chibana's kobayashi shorinryu and the latter being an offshoot of Kyan's shobayashi shorinryu. Ko- and sho- bayashi lineages have the same kata for the most part and while there are differences, the kata are easily recognizable as being the same kata. So, the answer to your question is yes, they pretty much know the same stuff while having their own identity and subtleties

Just as in Uechi ryu, the same goes for branches within the shorinryu and other karate families.
.

And all of Martial Arts as well.

 

[Gyakuto]

I went ahead and corrected the typo in the thread title. Moderator privilege.

May you be blessed by a host of seraphim 🙏🏽

 

[Fungus]

So in Karate alone there are virtually an infinate varity of styles and the number of styles is growing every time a Sensi decides to "improve the Karate" they are teaching?

Reminds me of an analogous question that often comes up in trying to understand quantum mechanics, like how many different interpretations of quantum mechanics are there? There are many "categories", but as someone said, there are as many interpretation as there are phycisicsts, and they are all wrong!

What is the "best" way to execute an attack, if all of them, at the end of the day can break a rib or two? The answer somehow depends on your stance or take on, or "interpretation" of MA.

I once met a college professor who was an expert in the first 7 minutes of the renaissance.

I love that guy already. Where are these people when you need them!

 

[gyoja]

I love that guy already. Where are these people when you need them!

At the university.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So in Karate alone there are virtually an infinate varity of styles and the number of styles is growing every time a Sensi decides to "improve the Karate" they are teaching? Not to mention other martial arts from around the world. I even saw an article on the style of martial art practiced by Batman in the movies!

I really had it wrong. I am learning more and more about less and less. I once met a college professor who was an expert in the first 7 minutes of the renaissance.


So, is the above basically correct?

There are a lot of styles of karate, that is correct. Not just Okinawan, but also in the USA. Karate itself is a word that has had several meanings. Originally on Okinawa, Karate meant "China Hand." It was decided by a group of Okinawan masters to change the meaning to "Open Hand."

New styles and organizations spring up all the time. Some are branched from other styles, some are combinations, some are due to differences in beliefs or politics. Some are invented out of whole cloth.

Especially in the US, anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a karate instructor; there's no law against it. Sometimes karate is more of a business than a martial art. There are several chains that have figured out how to make a franchise that caters to teaching kids; they will sell you a franchise with no experience, put you through a six week training, and boom, you're a sensei. I'm actually not joking, that's a real thing.

The style I train in, Isshinryu, dates back to the 1950s. Our founder decided to make a new style combining Shorinryu and Gojuryu. Since his passing, the lineage split several times, over various issues. In the USA, many organizations have arisen and fallen, most based on the first generation American students and their subsequent students. And that's just one small style of karate. Personally, I don't follow all of those things, and I don't get too wrapped up in the drama.

I just train. Nothing wrong with other styles. Nothing wrong with other arts. I'm happy with mine and nothing anyone says or does changes that, so I'm good.

 

[opr1945]

Thank you very much. Helpful.