Differences between TCM and TJM?

[Edmund BlackAdder]

I've seen alot about Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), but have also seen a few mentions to Traditional Japanese Medicine (TJM). Unfortunately I haven't found much on it, or how it differs from TCM.

Can anyone shed some light on this and educate a poor clueless putz like me?

 

[Chris from CT]

That's actually a really good question. There are a few differences between TCM and Japanese.

This is just a generalization of different styles of acupuncture...

Internal Diagnostics - Besides both asking specific questions, a TCM practitioner will check the tongue and pulse where as a Japanese practitioner will palpate the abdomen (the Hara) of the patient and perhaps check the pulse. All these give a practitioner an "internal view of what's going on with the patient at the time.

Needles - Generally, Chinese use larger gauge needles while Japanese prefer smaller gauge needles.

Manual Needle Manipulation - This refers to how a practitioner will manipulate a needle once it is inserted in a patient. In general, the Chinese use larger motions to produce "De Qi" or "the arrival of Qi" and the Japanese use very small motions.

Needle Sensation - As mentioned before, the Chinese like to achieve De Qi which can have many sensations for the patient. Some feelings a patient experience can include achy, throbbing, shooting, heavy, etc. On the other hand, the Japanese general do not try to achieve De Qi. Some Japanese practitioners don't want that at all and consider it counterproductive.

These are just a few off the top of my head. Remember that this is just a generalization and that certain practitioners may treat differently, but the above is a good "rule of thumb." I hope this helps.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Thank you. It does :asian:

 

[monkey]

I saw an excellent doc on Chinese meds that was hosed be Bill Moyer.He did indepth of there herbs & use of Chi-Yes the energy that heals or can be used to remove tumors.Or so they say.It was called History of Chi I belave or think it was.But easly for on video.

 

[Freestyler777]

I am a Licensed Acupuncturist since 2002 (NY state), and I was educated primarily in the style of TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine). In short, TCM is more straightforward, practical, and pragmatic. TJM is more esoteric, gentle, and non-invasive. In TCM, the diagnosis is largely ignored! You simply try as many different treatments empirically until you find an effective combination of points, then derive a diagnosis from what helped the patient. Also, the Chinese are more willing to use the diagnosis and information from an MD than the TJM, because the TJM are more esoteric and rely less on scientific evidence. Hope that helped.

Lior Avni, L.Ac

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am a Licensed Acupuncturist since 2002 (NY state), and I was educated primarily in the style of TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine). In short, TCM is more straightforward, practical, and pragmatic. TJM is more esoteric, gentle, and non-invasive. In TCM, the diagnosis is largely ignored! You simply try as many different treatments empirically until you find an effective combination of points, then derive a diagnosis from what helped the patient. Also, the Chinese are more willing to use the diagnosis and information from an MD than the TJM, because the TJM are more esoteric and rely less on scientific evidence. Hope that helped.

Lior Avni, L.Ac

I don’t wish to start something here, but I do not agree with this.

I am not an acupuncturist but my wife is and has been for almost 20 years.

She was the head of the acupuncture section of the TCM department of Beijing hospital and a graduate of Beijing University of Traditional Chinese medicine and is an OMD as well as a licensed acupuncturist in NYS.

I know little of TJM but TCM does make a diagnosis and it is VERY important to have the TCM diagnosis before you start treatment, but it is a separate diagnosis from what you might get from a western style doctor, however the diagnosis from another doctor is of coursed taken into consideration, but it is not necessarily going to help in treatment since western medicine approaches diagnosis and treatment in very different ways from Traditional Chinese Medicine.

There are also definite treatment plans based on the TCM diagnosis, what points to use what herbal to use etc., It is not just hunt a peck and try to figure out what works best.

 

[Freestyler777]

No offense taken, I was simply reporting my practical experience in the clinic. The man who taught me the most when I was in the student clinic was a certain Dr. Rong Da Zhu, who was both an MD and an acupuncturist and an herbalist. He comes from a famous family in Beijing and most of his siblings work in the health profession. He told me that approach to diagnosis, and it is largely effective. Perhaps it is because you can't churn out acupuncturists in nine trimesters of study and expect them to have the clinical, diagnostic, and practical skills to diagnose patients using Oriental Physiology and its prinicples. But that is a criticism of the school I went to, New York College, not acupuncture. I do agree with most of what you wrote. I was just sharing my views. Thank you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The curriculum at Beijing University of TCM is equivalent to 12 semesters here for an OMD, so likely you are right.

And again I do not mean to offend and I am sure that Dr Rong Da Zhu is very skilled and a very good teacher, but did he say he was a trained MD, herbalist and acupuncturist in Beijing?

Generally if someone tells you they were and MD, acupuncturist and herbalist in Beijing it is simply not true, it does not happen there.

 

[Freestyler777]

Dr Zhu was a Gynecologist, as well as having some experience in Cardiology. But in America, he only practices Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine. And believe me, he is good!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Dr Zhu was a Gynecologist, as well as having some experience in Cardiology. But in America, he only practices Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine. And believe me, he is good!

I believe you a good personal friend of mine was an MD in China and he amazes me at how much he knows.

I talked with my wife further about the diagnosis issue. She use to be the teacher of foreign Students in association with the World Health Organization at Beijing hospital as well.

She said that a lot of Western TCM school do not teach diagnosis and it was not easy to teach to Westerns at Beijing Hospital either. The problem appears to be that we are brought up in Western medicine where (for example) basically a cold is a cold and you treat it one way and that is generally treating only the symptom. Where in TCM there are different causes of a cold and you need to treat the individual causes as well as the symptom. It is the diagnosis of the cause that is important.

According to her diagnosis in TCM is very important but very hard to teach.

 

[Freestyler777]

I agree. Those who are brought up in the cultural mileu of the Orient have a better grasp of Oriental Physiology than us westerners. But in general, the TCM is more pragmatic than TJM, which is more Esoteric. That much I think is correct.

 

[Chris from CT]

In my practice, I primarily use Japanese acupuncture to treat my patients and I would have to disagree about a couple of points (no pun intended).

1) In many Japanese styles a western diagnosis is highly regarded to a patient's condition. This comes from the time Dutch scholars and traders came to Japan and introduced western medicine.

2) I agree with Xue Sheng that in TCM the diagnosis is critical to proper treatment. Although diagnostic skills aren't at their peak when graduating from school, it is the refinement of that skill that will make a practitioner effective.

3) IMHO Japanese acupuncture is no more esoteric than TCM. I feel that palpating for tenderness in the right hypochondriac region is just as pragmatic, if not more so, than observing the tongue for "Stagnant Liver Qi."

Although I may disagree with a few points… great posts!

Take care.

 

[Freestyler777]

I like that quote from the Tao Te Ching. I often read the Henricks translation (from the Ma-Huang Ti texts), it has a lot of wisdom in it.

 

[Nobody]

Actually the reason i want to become a acupuncturist is the pulse thing seem more advanced an is the first line i thought of creating a diagnosis.

Am i correct anyone Chris from CT or Xue Sheng do you know or can you ask cause the guy i studied with in martial arts was training me he is OMD an he used the pulse along with the tongue an the eye. there are even other pulses than that on the wrist. Than he would palpating for tenderness certain areas to see if the person had pain in these areas.

Now that is my view i could be wrong.

What i think of TJM is it is just quite blunt in that it will say it got its method from the Chinese for points an located organ so on. TCM is not better it is just very up front about why things work, this is MHO. Allopathie still just gets me when it says that TCM or TJM or Vedic medicine could not work, that is were they get there ideas for a lot of the medicines, that are give all these thing often apear to come from Vedic or TCM methods that help with certain diseases. MHPO

 

[Carol]

Allopathie still just gets me when it says that TCM or TJM or Vedic medicine could not work, that is were they get there ideas for a lot of the medicines, that are give all these thing often apear to come from Vedic or TCM methods that help with certain diseases. MHPO

I think the legal climate has a lot to do with the reactions of allopathic practitioners. No doctor wants to be sued for malpractice and I think some are afraid of exactly that if they even hint towards pursuing a naturopathic solution that doesn't have U.S. clinical backing.

I see an allopath and a chiropractor/naturopath for treatment of a couple of health issues. My allopath seems to be a personal believer in naturopathic treatment but seems reluctant to make the professional recommendation. However, when I say "My chiropractor had me do XXXX and that has helped me feel better," she has always been very enthusiastic about the solution.

The responsibility shift can be a big deal.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually the reason i want to become a acupuncturist is the pulse thing seem more advanced an is the first line i thought of creating a diagnosis.

Am i correct anyone Chris from CT or Xue Sheng do you know or can you ask cause the guy i studied with in martial arts was training me he is OMD an he used the pulse along with the tongue an the eye. there are even other pulses than that on the wrist. Than he would palpating for tenderness certain areas to see if the person had pain in these areas.

Now that is my view i could be wrong.

What i think of TJM is it is just quite blunt in that it will say it got its method from the Chinese for points an located organ so on. TCM is not better it is just very up front about why things work, this is MHO. Allopathie still just gets me when it says that TCM or TJM or Vedic medicine could not work, that is were they get there ideas for a lot of the medicines, that are give all these thing often apear to come from Vedic or TCM methods that help with certain diseases. MHPO

Traditional Chinese Medicine as it is trained and practiced in Beijing Checks in this order to reach a diagnosis.

1) Wang
2) Wen (first tone)
3) Wen (Second tone)
4) Qie.

Wang = Look; look at face, hair, skin, tongue, eyes. Etc.

Wen (first tone)= Smell; breath, odor, etc.

Wen (Second tone) = talk; there are 10 basic questions that are to be asked here as well as some others

Qie – touch; check pulse, meridian, skin, etc.

From this you get a diagnosis.

 

[Chris from CT]

Am i correct anyone Chris from CT or Xue Sheng do you know or can you ask cause the guy i studied with in martial arts was training me he is OMD an he used the pulse along with the tongue an the eye. there are even other pulses than that on the wrist. Than he would palpating for tenderness certain areas to see if the person had pain in these areas.

I'm not sure exactly what your question is, but if you are asking, "can a practitioner diagnose from tongue, pulse and observing the eye?" then I would have to answer yes.

What i think of TJM is it is just quite blunt in that it will say it got its method from the Chinese for points an located organ so on. TCM is not better it is just very up front about why things work, this is MHO.

The Japanese style developed from the Chinese classics such as the Nei Jing and especially the Nan Jing. The Hara patterns found in the abdomen come from the classics and were more than just "mu points" of the corresponding organs in those texts. Of course as time went on they developed even further by clinical experience.

Diagnosis in either Chinese or Japanese medicine is looking at the root or underlying cause of their patient's complaint. When a Japanese practioner palpates the abdomen they are feeling for the underlying imbalance whether they are feeling for tenderness, temperature, quality, etc. (which we call a “reflex” and can be thought of as an outward reflection of what’s happening constitutionally) These give the practioner an “internal view” of what’s going on and reveals the underlying imbalance. This is the same as a Chinese practitioner would do by looking at the tongue and feeling the pulse. “Same mountain, just different paths to the summit.” (note: some Japanese styles do use the pulse as the primary diagnostic method)

As far as TCM being more “up front” than TJM, I personally would disagree, but that all depends on what you would define "up front” to mean. In the style of Japanese acupuncture that I practice, we are checking treatment points that we use for a particular patient, meaning that each point must clear an abdominal/distal "reflex" and/or make their primary complaint better. So not only do you know they are doing better, but the patient knows immediately as well. In TCM, sometimes the patient may not experience any change in their condition because the practioner is working constitutionally and it may take some time to see the improvement they just made through the treatment.

Take care. :asian: