Differences between Remy and Ernesto

[Bob]

I have always been curious about the differences between Remy and Ernesto. What I am asking is the differences in styles that they teach. What they emphasised in their arts? Differences in the way they moved???? etc etc......
Any insight would be appreciated......
Also, it is nice to see Datu "D" from Germany posting. I had an opportunity to attend a session and a seminar while he was in Washington many years ago, and for all that do not know, he is a very dynamic martial artist with a very indepth knowledge of martial arts. I also would like to add, one tough, fast, hard hitting guy...........

Thanks
Bob

 

[Dieter]

Hi Bob,

thanks for the flowers. With an additional "friendly" it would have been perfect .
But coming to your question.
I was with Ernesto from 1983 to 1993 (he ranked me 5th Dan) and with the Professor from 1994 until his death.
So my knowledge about Ernesto may be a little old, but I saw an exhibition from him about a year ago and it was pretty much the same stuff I have learned.
But coming to the differences:
Ernesto put more emphasis on form and posture, having a proper stance and an upright position. A little more Karate like but not so stiff. Remy really never lost a word about stances. Anyway, one of the main differences I found was, that Ernesto concentrated much more on hitting, butting, striking and Abanicos and also disarmings, where Remy put much more emphasis on controlling, locking takedowns, pins and trappings. Everybody who ever was in his "fangs" knows what I am talking about. Thats why I am really happy to have learned under both. I got "the best of 2 worlds".
Ernesto teaches a little more vartiety of weapons, also Bo (long staff), or palmstick, Sai, Tonfa etc if you want (even Kendo) where Remy concentrated more on the singlestick and empty hands. Of course he also knew the other stuff and occasionally taught it, but when ha taught me, he stayed more within these areas. In the beginning of the 80ies Ernesto had only 3 Sinawalis (Single, Double and Reverse) and almost no drills. Neither empty hands, nor knife. Exept of his "Freestyle sparring" which is a kind of basic Tapi-Tapi. This seemed to have changed, so that he teaches a lot of back and forth drills that you use with interchanging weapons. Wheas in a lot of Remys drills, there is a dominating, controlling person and not 2 people playingthe same game.
Ernesto differenciated also more between "Modern Arnis" and "classical Arnis".
A thing the we still do and it gives us sometimes problems, because Remy did notthe same way (at least when he taught us).
The difference was, that in the classical styles like Hirada Batanguenia, Palis Palis, Figuer 8 etc, you could inerchange the stick for a machete. In Modern Arnis you could not, because in modern we try to catch (trap) the STICK of the opponent. Something I would never try with a sword. Modern had the modern approach, that in Germany or in the cities of the US, not everybody is wielding a large blade, therfore other techniques (like the catching) could be used. And the classical styles were the roots of the Modern Arnis, because in the Philippined the DO run around with their machetes, at least in the provinces.
One of the biggest differences though is, that Remy was lefthanded and , at least in the late 90ies, he handed this skill onto his students, in his Tapi-Tapi. I don´t say that Ernesto does not have left handed techniques (his son Jan-Jan is left handed and supposed to be really good) but he did not teach to everybody. Remy made all of his students do the right and the left hand in his Tapi-Tapi.
On a very personal note I think, that Remys Modern Arnis was a lot deeper, what really showed in the comparason of the Freestyle of Ernesto (which was very special to him and one should not show this to lower belts, because it was the "secret of the art"). But compared with the amount of techniques, their depth and how intricate and sophisticated they are in the Tapi Tapi, the Freestyle now seems quite shallow to me.
One last word. Remy was not only a Grandmaster, to me he was a Gand Master, also on a peronal level. He was caring and tried to make you learn and make you good. He was very sure aboutm himself and his position. I did not have this impression at all with Ernesto.

I hope that helped.
But please keep in mind, that this is a very personal view and the others might have had different experiences with both ot the Presas brothers.

Let me make a little advertisement here. My main job in producing martial arts instuctional videos. I have produced the 8 videos with Suro Mike Inay and all together about 35 video with FMA related styles or topics. I can say without beeing arrogant, that they are professionally produced and have a very high standard, quality and content wise.
I have just finished a video on the Tapi-Tapi of Modern Arnis (available in english and NTSC version).
It shows the structure, how we teach it here in Germany and taked you step by step though many different techniques. It runs for 95 minutes and turned out really good.
Have a look at my homsite, under

http://www.abanico.de

when you are interested in quality martial arts videos.
I have many satified US american customers, so don´t be shy.
So much for now and here
I hope I stepped on nobodies toes. That would not have been my intention.

Best regards from Germany

Datu Dieter Knüttel
http://www.abanico.de
http://www.modernarnis.de

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dieter
I have produced the 8 videos with Suro Mike Inay

Thanks for all the information, Mr. Knüttel! I just wanted to say that Mr. Inay was another great FMA master who was lost relatively recently. I was fortunate enough to attend a pair of seminars by him, on the Reactive Knife Defense System and on the Pressure Sensitive Nerve Areas that are referred to on Mr. Knüttel's site. The PSNA he taught was absolutely legitimate stuff--no exaggerated pressure points claims--and I learned a number of useful things.

 

[Bob]

Datu "D"
Thank you for the history lesson!!!!!!!!! The information was great.................
Bob

 

[arnisador]

Can anyone comment on the arnis system of Roberto Presas? I believe he was allied with his brother Ernesto Presas, at least for a time.

Have either of the Presas brothers made any public comment regarding the leadership of Modern Arnis in the wake of their brother's death?

 

[thekuntawman]

i studied at the arjuken gym in quezon city for two years. roberto and ernesto have the same style.

roberto was the one who would travel in the philippines and bring back information (thats what they told me). ernesto is to busy with his family and his gym. jon-jon (ernesto's boy) is an excellent fighter in karate and arnis.

from what i know ernesto's style is very traditional arnis and more like what you will find in the philippines in small towns. but a good friend of mine on the inside told me that since he came here to the US, his style is more like remy style with all the tap-tap drills and fancy combinations. i believe this is to pull more people to him.

my uncle is a friend of ernesto presas and he feels mr presas should step forward to take his brothers organization before people starts fighting and stuff. i think ernesto will not do that. i agree because he is outside the p.i. in the philippines people are satisfied to be a member of a group and helf to build it up. but no offense americans are very ambitious. as soon as many americans get a certifiacte they make videos and teach, and even start his own style. i see that some people even challenge remy's son, saying who are you i dont know you. dont you know in the philippines even if he is a 16 year old kids, you have to call him "guro"? in most styles the son takes the head. i feel bad for modern arnis because if everyobody stays together the group can be strong. but with to many people at the top you will fall over like a baby with a big head.

 

[Icepick]

thekuntawman: "with to many people at the top you will fall over like a baby with a big head."

Gotta love that!

 

[Tapps]

Thanks to Datu D. for the in depth info.

I just want to add one thing.
I belive Remy and Ernesto started with a base
in the same family system.
Remy added Balintawak training
which has had a big influence on his art.

I don't belive Ernesto did.

Datu Knuttel is much more qualified to speeak about Grandmaster Ernesto than I.

I hope he corrects me if I am mispeaking.

Tapps.

--------------------------------------------------

Walk softly and carry a big stick.

 

[thekuntawman]

i was told ernesto and remy's first style is balintawak by mr presas himself (ernesto). i dont know about the new information told today, but in 1988, the ID card you get from the arjuken gym says "balintawak, negros occidental arnis style" i know that they studyied in japan for a while so there is a lot of karate movements in the style. i remember what i saw remy students doing in the 80s is the same thing (almost exactly as enresto). but now i see a lot of wally jay style in the techniques, also with more drilling now after edgar sulite came.

well, after edgar sulite came, it seems that everybody is relly doing a lot of drills after that.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i was told ernesto and remy's first style is balintawak by mr presas himself (ernesto). i dont know about the new information told today, but in 1988, the ID card you get from the arjuken gym says "balintawak, negros occidental arnis style" i know that they studyied in japan for a while so there is a lot of karate movements in the style. i remember what i saw remy students doing in the 80s is the same thing (almost exactly as enresto). but now i see a lot of wally jay style in the techniques, also with more drilling now after edgar sulite came.

I understand that balintawak was a big influence on the Professor but I thought that he and his brothers had studied a family or village style prior to studying it. There was definitely a strong karate influence--look at the anyos--and a strong small-circle jujitsu influence.

The Professor started out training for fighting, I believe, and switched toward drills for some of the same reasons Ryukyu-te arts were switched toward karate-do--make it more cooperative, make it safer to practice, be able to teach it in schools, make it for everybody, etc. He wanted arnis to be widely practiced, and it worked. In doing so he created an art that is both effective and popular but perhaps less geared toward fighting stick-to-stick in death matches. The techniques are still there but his emphasis was different.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I had talked to GM Ernesto about a year ago and he told me that he didn't do Balintawak. Being a student of Balintawak myself, I can't say that he moves like some one who does the art.

:asian:

 

[thekuntawman]

there is many styles of balintawak. some are simple styles and some are complicated styles. but the id card you got in 1988 says "balintawak" on it, i had one, maybe if i can find it i will put a picture of it somewhere for you.

one thing i know about arnis "masters" is, there stories changed through the years. one day he studied it, the next day, his father made it up, and then still another day, he created it himself. for many of the men who make his own style, the easiest thing is to say they learned it from there dad, which is something you heard a lot. i am not saying this because i am pointing to anyone, its just something i notice.

in my area, i see a lot of people who learned from angel cabales(mgbp) or one of his students, then they come up with something that is really serrada, but they "learn" it somehwere else. one of those things is "filipino serrada" the story is he learned serrada from a group in the philippines. but they still have lock and block, and picking and things that belong to mr cabales.

i am no expert of presas arnis, but i am a black belter of it, and i am only talking about what i saw when i was there.

 

[Dieter]

Hi everybody,

just my 2 cents about this (I dont state that this is the truth, I only tell what I know about it. Other peolpe might know more about it)
From the talks I had with Ernesto and Remy I can say only the following:

According to Ernestos book, their father Jose Presas y Bonco was a reputed Abanico player, with his father Leon and grandfather Stroke being also players (masters, teachers - I don´t know) of the art.
Remy started with his father and grandfather. At the age of 14 ( around 1950) he started travelling the Philippines for 6 years, to also come to Cebu, where he learned Balintawak from Rodolfo Moncal, Timoteo Marranga and Vincente Bacon.
He also learned other styles from other masters, but the Balintawak was definitively one of his most important roots when he founded his system Modern Arnis in 1957, after his return to Negros. Ernesto was 13 years of age, when Remy founded the Modern Arnis.

Ernesto never liked, when his students were also taking instructions from other FMA systems or teachers, (at least in the 80ies. This might have changed now, due to him being exposed to the american FMA practitioners, but I don´t know that).
I, who knew the history of Remy, who did exactly this, was astonished about this and asked him, that he sure also had several teachers, like his brother Remy ( I thought that they might have had a similar agenda). Buf he said, that he only learned from his father. (I know that the brothers were seriously mad at each other, so I was not astonished about him not mentioning Remy as a teacher). Nevertheless, I saw a 7th Dan Modern Arnis certificate of Ernesto in 1983 hanging in his Dojo, signed by Remy.
I never heared or read anything of Ernesto traveling in the Philippines like Remy did, nor did I ever hear Ernesto having something to do with Balintawak.


Regarding Roberto: When I trained with him in 1983 in Manila, he did what Ernesto told him to do and teach. I learned a lot of classical Arnis from him, but he also was a good Modern Arnis player. He was extremly good in twirling: In one hand a stick in the other hand a nunchaku. (Try that and tell me how long your injuries took to heal )

Anyway, this is what I know about it. I am curious to hear other opinions and experiences with the Presas brothers.

Best regards from Germany

Datu Dieter Knüttel

 

[LabanB]

Hi All,

Just catching up on my reading!

I'd like to add that I have a great number of the Abanico tapes (most of Bob Breens, all of the Doce Pares with Danny Guba, Rapid Arnis, etc) and the quality of production is superb, along with the quality of instruction. These tapes should be amongst your collection.

Dieter, will you have your new Tapi-Tapi tape at the 1st European FMA Festival, and how much is it? I'm in the process of arraning flights, so this time we will meet ;-)

Bill Lowery

 

[Dieter]

Hi Bill,

yes, the Tapi-Tapi video is finished in german and in english and it will be available at the Festival. I will save you a copy. It is 95 minutes long and shows a lot of Tapi-Tapi techniques.

Inside of Europe it costs 35,90 EURO, for people out of Europe is it 39,-- US$. (If one buys more videos, they will get cheaper).

Anyway, for more information about the Tapi-Tapi video and ABANICO (my company) videos in general, have a look at

http://www.abanico.de

If you have any questions about the videos, feel free to ask.


Best regards from Germany

Datu Dieter Knüttel
http://www.modernarnis.de
ABANICO Video Prodcutions
http://www.abanico.de

PS:
I would appreciate anybody, who will link my site on their homepage. If you do, let me know, I will link you too on my page.

 

[thekuntawman]

hi dieter i think maybe i met you before. i use to train at arjuken every thursday to sunday. i am one of those guys who made that movie with mr presas called "stick".

anyway you are right, ernesto did not like when you went to other people to study. remember his school is downstairs from yaw yan, and there was another arnis school in the alley behind the school (on quiapo blvd).

also, roberto did whatever ernsto said for him to do, but it was roberto who did the travelling then, because ernesto has a family and the gym to run. i do know he had many teachers, because i met the students of some of them. he did say it was remy that created "modern arnis", but roberto and ernesto called there system "arnis presas style".

abaniko style eskrima is the same thing as pekiti tirsia. not the style "pt" (like nene tortal's style), but the style of fighting that most visayan styles had inside the system. when someone said "i know abaniko style of eskrima" he is saying that he knows the technique, or strategy of eskrima (close range, using the tip and butt, elbows out) called abaniko, and its usually from somewhere in the visayas.

 

[Dieter]

Hi thekuntawman

Well, I was in Manila in 1983 from beginning of August to end of October and again from January 2nd 1986 to End of March 1986. I trained every day many hours in Ernestos gym. In February 1986 I organized with him the first European Filipino Arnis Camp in Hundret Islands. (During the revolution and the change of govermnet from Ferdinand Marcos to Cory Aquino). Were you there at that time?

anyway you are right, ernesto did not like when you went to other people to study. remember his school is downstairs from yaw yan, and there was another arnis school in the alley behind the school (on quiapo blvd).

I remember the MATCOP gym right arcoss Ernestos Dojo. I stayed there for 3 or 4 weeks, slept and trained there with Rodel Dagoog, Antonio Plotria, Freddie Alfaro (Doce teros long range system) and others.
I learned a lot especially from Rodel, who was an extremly dynamic Arnisador and teacher.

also, roberto did whatever ernsto said for him to do, but it was roberto who did the travelling then, because ernesto has a family and the gym to run. i do know he had many teachers, because i met the students of some of them. he did say it was remy that created "modern arnis", but roberto and ernesto called there system "arnis presas style".

Regarding the travelling I had no information about that. Good to know, thanks for the information.
Regarding "Modern Arnis" I do not agree fully.
When you talk about the end of the 80ies, you are right. When I was there he called it Modern Arnis. He even said, that he and his brother Remy developed the Modern Arnis (He was 13 years when Modern Arnis was founded).
Also in his first, red book, with the title "The art of Arnis" he covered classical components and presented Modern Arnis.

The books whe wrote later were called "Presas Arnis", you are right there.

abaniko style eskrima is the same thing as pekiti tirsia. not the style "pt" (like nene tortal's style), but the style of fighting that most visayan styles had inside the system. when someone said "i know abaniko style of eskrima" he is saying that he knows the technique, or strategy of eskrima (close range, using the tip and butt, elbows out) called abaniko, and its usually from somewhere in the visayas.

I was only quoting from Ernestos first book.


Best regards form Germany

Datu Dieter Knüttel
http://www.modernarnis.de
ABANICO Video Prodcutions
http://www.abanico.de

 

[arnisador]

In the current issue of Black Belt (March 2002) is a letter to the editor from Bobby Toboada in tribute to the Professor. He mentions training balintawak with him in the Philippines.

(I do not know for certain that the link refers to the same Mr. Toboada.)

 

[Tapps]

Remy told me that he started learning arnis around age four. He said his grandfather taught him Palis-Palis and Ocho-Ocho.

He traveled around the PI and learned many different styles.

I don't remember who he started Balintawak with but he ended up with Anchon Bacon, the founder.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Tapps
Palis-Palis and Ocho-Ocho

I know something of the former but not the latter. Does anyone know what this style or technique is?