Did you kick anything in your Shotokan or Goju Ryu kick training?

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A little clarification on your three points:
A. Makiwara is definitely old time equipment - doesn't mean its not effective for certain training.
B. I only referenced the makiwara to punching. But since you brought up kicks, there was a hanging, longer, makiwara, as well as the fixed kind, to practice kicks on in the old time dojos.
C. No training aid is the core of any martial art. They are supplementary to developing effective fighting techniques.

My point about the makiwara is that it's probably not as wide spread as it once was, and it's certainly not something you do from the get-go even if it is..
 

Flying Crane

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by insulting both your own intelligence and mine arguing that there are no health aspects of KICKING a heavy bag?

Again, how do your knees feel when there's resistance? Not so good, huh? How about hard resistance? Not so good either? Lets make that hard and heavy and suddenly it's perfectly healthy.
As Ive said, my knees are fine. Do you have reason to believe I am lying? Do you know my knees better than I do?

Maybe it’s just your knees that can’t take it. I dunno.
 

Headhunter

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So who are these bad-asses that you are talking about? Joe Lewis picked a Shotokan Karateka for his first KB fight specifically because Shotokan stylist are so arrogant yet won't fight, but he found one who was willing to put it on the line and it lasted about as long as predicted.
Lol you calling anyone arrogant is hilarious
 

Headhunter

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As Ive said, my knees are fine. Do you have reason to believe I am lying? Do you know my knees better than I do?

Maybe it’s just your knees that can’t take it. I dunno.
Yes you are. If you’re facts go against his opinions you are a liar oh and if you disagree with his nonsense you are also “tracking his posts”
 

Buka

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So who are these bad-asses that you are talking about? Joe Lewis picked a Shotokan Karateka for his first KB fight specifically because Shotokan stylist are so arrogant yet won't fight, but he found one who was willing to put it on the line and it lasted about as long as predicted.

I believe Greg Baines was a Kenpo stylist, not a Shotokan stylist.
 

Headhunter

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I believe Greg Baines was a Kenpo stylist, not a Shotokan stylist.
Don’t even bother, this guy doesn’t listen to anyone...if your experiences are different to his opinion he calls you a liar then changes the question
 

Headhunter

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People are ignorant. Take a guess why it's bad long-term for the knees kicking a hard, heavy bag. This isn't rocket science.
What’s your evidence for this?....kicking the air is a lot dangerous for knees than kicking a bag. I’ve been around fighters and martial artists all my life and not once have I met anyone who’s injured themselves kicking a bag. One coach is 70 years old and trains every day on the bag and his knees are perfectly fine. So you make this ridiculous claim. Okay show us the evidence? And if you can’t or won’t that just proves you’re making stuff up
 

Headhunter

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by insulting both your own intelligence and mine arguing that there are no health aspects of KICKING a heavy bag?

Again, how do your knees feel when there's resistance? Not so good, huh? How about hard resistance? Not so good either? Lets make that hard and heavy and suddenly it's perfectly healthy.
My knees feel perfectly fine....maybe you’re just bad at kicking or just can’t take it because no one else has ever said this....you’ve got people in Thailand kicking trees and are fine so kicking a bag isn’t going to do anything...again this is your claim...prove it
 

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I would question any dojo that did not have a heavy kicking bag. I don't believe it is possible to develop effective kicks or punches, or any other strikes, without experiencing impact. And it's not just about gaining power and strength in the moves (although these are very important.)

There are other benefits as well. Number two is balance and position after impact. If good form is not present, meeting a resisting object can throw you off balance as it sends a shock wave thru your body.

Thirdly, having a realistic object to hit develops focus, physically and mentally (and spiritually as well.)

Next, having a solid target teaches you gauge distance so you can develop a sense of the proper maia for the various strikes

Still another benefit is if your ankle or wrist is not angled or tightened properly, a heavy bag will quickly point that out.

All of the above are vitally important in karate. And something else that's important - it's fun! Hand held shields are better than nothing, but require a partner and must be held at specific angles for prearranged targets. Hanging bags are best.

A workout wasn't complete until the heavy canvas bag and makiwara (wrapped with coarse rope) had taken some skin off my knuckles. Loved it!
I agree with your basic argument - I'd just point out there are other things that can be kicked with force. The heavy bag at my primary dojo got less use than it should, but we used kicking shields regularly. The bag is better in some ways.
 

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And there are people who smoked who never got lung cancer.
Okay, so where's your evidence that heavy bags are so dangerous to knees? Literally everyone I know who trains kicks has used them, and most haven't needed surgery.
 

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I would question any individual that did not have a heavy kicking bag at home. The heavy bag training is part of the home work.

A: My school doesn't spar enough.
B: You should form a fighting club yourself.

A: My school doesn't train enough on the heavy bag.
B: You should train heavy bag at home.

One should not allow his MA school to restrict his personal training.

My MA school didn't teach me the knife throwing skill. I developed my knife throwing skill all by myself.
Then you question me. I've never had a heavy bag at home.
 

gpseymour

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He mentioned two Karatekas turned Kickboxers. Who is missing the point?

Again, can the Kung Fu practioners stop diluting my threads? I don't care what you guys do. If I have a question about Kung Fu, then I'll ask it.
You do a fine job diluting your own threads.
 

gpseymour

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by insulting both your own intelligence and mine arguing that there are no health aspects of KICKING a heavy bag?

Again, how do your knees feel when there's resistance? Not so good, huh? How about hard resistance? Not so good either? Lets make that hard and heavy and suddenly it's perfectly healthy.
You're the one who has made unsubstantiated claims. Don't get mad at folks who dispute them.
 

_Simon_

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In Kyokushin (Goju/Shotokan mix and more) we kicked pleeeenty of things :)

In Shotokan that I trained in at the end of last year, we kicked the heavy bag, and pads.

I'd say it depends on the club, even if you'd expect it to be a given that you'd surely kick something.
 

_Simon_

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I would question any individual that did not have a heavy kicking bag at home. The heavy bag training is part of the home work.

A: My school doesn't spar enough.
B: You should form a fighting club yourself.

A: My school doesn't train enough on the heavy bag.
B: You should train heavy bag at home.

One should not allow his MA school to restrict his personal training.

My MA school didn't teach me the knife throwing skill. I developed my knife throwing skill all by myself.
That's a really interesting thought KFW :)

I've wondered this, how much to expect of a school, how much of that is really important to work on in person at a school, and what can you really just work on at home (as a refining/practice exercise).

Not every school is going to be perfect and have everything you want to do, so I wonder to what degree we can fine tune certain things at home. I'd say the more vital core components of a system should be in the classes of course... but those supplemental exercises...

Bag/padwork is really good to get feedback on though, but it's also something you can simply work with at home to get the feel of impact.. hmmm!
 
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