Did the Unions kill innovation and efficiency?

[Xue Sheng]

I challenge you to show me a specific union policy, or specific union stance that has specifically been innovative or increased efficiency, something recent say in the last 20 years.
.

That question right there either shows you are either completely clueless as to what a Union does or you are specifically trying to ask a question that you feel cannot be answered to support your position... that or you're a propaganda ministers dream

But you see there is an answer...teachers unions all over the place have taken raises out of their contracts to help with budget issues and a local school system in NYS "Glensfalls" had its members find ways to streamline the system to be more financially efficient, not have any layoffs and still maintain the same level of education the children of that district...you see.... unions are not that bad

And vilifying one group and planning all the problems on the country is just plain wrong....it is not one groups fault...although there are a lot that want you to believe it is...namely politicians (republican and democrat) and the CEOs that caused the most recent financial crisis that we are still dealing with...

As to your postal service thing...it is strange that the main cause for the problems at the post office is conspicuously absent...e-mail and social networking

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

That question right there either shows you are either completely clueless as to what a Union does or you are specifically asking a question that cannot be answered because you are very aware of what a union does and are asking questions that simply do not apply to the subject to support your position... that or you're a propaganda ministers dream

oh you mean because unions do not support efficiency they support as easy rules as possible for their people, and they do not support innovation, they are actually against it since they only care about maintaining and growing the union ranks?
I see... so just go ahead and give the answer.....

NO I can not find any single Union policy that promotes efficiency and innovation....

thanks.

that was not so hard was it?

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I made no such claim. I said they did not destroy it, which is obvious since productivity continues to rise. You can twist all you want, but that basic fact remains.

I am not obligated to produce evidence for claims I did not make. It's conspicuous however that you are producing no evidence for your claims.



Compared to a handful of quotes and selected stories? Evidence always wins against anecdata, no matter how incomplete.



Educate yourself.

I know what moving the goalposts means, it simply does not apply here when you are squirming trying to find a way out...
you are not obliged to provide any proof of your beliefs.
you are also not obliged to post up manufactured graphs that are meaningless.
I can draw a cartoon character making any comment I want it to say and it will be as meaningful as that ridiculous graph you added.
so like I said to the other guy...
it might be easier for you to say...
NO. I can not find any single thing that shows Unions are pushing for innovation and efficiency..

everything I see in the news, the facts in regards to contracts, and actions shows the exact opposite.... that unions are in fact any innovation, and anti efficiency...

 

[Empty Hands]

I can draw a cartoon character making any comment I want it to say and it will be as meaningful as that ridiculous graph you added.

WHY? You have provided no critique of the data or my conclusions. You simply say they are meaningless and then demand proof from me for a claim I didn't make. Someone is squirming here, and it isn't me. You can simply declaim your beliefs all day long if you want, but that doesn't mean you are making a rational argument. So far, you have dismissed my evidence without bothering to critique it, and offered no evidence of your own. So who is putting forth an actual argument here? It isn't you.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

WHY? You have provided no critique of the data or my conclusions. You simply say they are meaningless and then demand proof from me for a claim I didn't make. Someone is squirming here, and it isn't me. You can simply declaim your beliefs all day long if you want, but that doesn't mean you are making a rational argument. So far, you have dismissed my evidence without bothering to critique it, and offered no evidence of your own. So who is putting forth an actual argument here? It isn't you.

oh i did critique it based on what you gave... link to the original site that includes the full parameters of the study, on initial glance its appears to me to not take into account any technological advancements at all. thats a big deal. I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone that actually believes union workers on a whole have become more hard working, and more efficient in how they work over the years :rofl: I think that that the only people who will say that are actually union workers, because they have an image to protect and all lol

 

[Xue Sheng]

oh you mean because unions do not support efficiency they support as easy rules as possible for their people, and they do not support innovation, they are actually against it since they only care about maintaining and growing the union ranks?
I see... so just go ahead and give the answer.....

NO I can not find any single Union policy that promotes efficiency and innovation....

thanks.

that was not so hard was it?

Sorry I hit submit before I was done with that one and have edited to change it to what I wanted to say...believe what you will you may want to reread what I meant to post

But to answer your last post to me what I mean is you appear to be clueless as to what Unions are for and what they do based on that question..oh just read my corrected post...I'm tired of typing...besides even if someone posted irrefutable proof you would tell them they were wrong...you have proven time and time again to be overly opinionated and rather closed minded

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

That question right there either shows you are either completely clueless as to what a Union does or you are specifically trying to ask a question that you feel cannot be answered to support your position... that or you're a propaganda ministers dream

But you see there is an answer...teachers unions all over the place have taken raises out of their contracts to help with budget issues and a local school system in NYS "Glensfalls" had its members find ways to streamline the system to be more financially efficient, not have any layoffs and still maintain the same level of education the children of that district...you see.... unions are not that bad

And vilifying one group and planning all the problems on the country is just plain wrong....it is not one groups fault...although there are a lot that want you to believe it is...namely politicians (republican and democrat) and the CEOs that caused the most recent financial crisis that we are still dealing with...

As to your postal service thing...it is strange that the main cause for the problems at the post office is conspicuously absent...e-mail and social networking

thanks for pointing out y ou changed what you posted or I would have totally missed it.
my step father retires from teaching this year after 39 years. not a moment to soon for him... his deal? absolutely friggin ridiculously fantastic for him.
i guess since its almost like working two government jobs and earning 2 20 year pensions though it doesnt seem as good, but still...
the union is making concessions by giving up raises? lol ok I will give you that in a strive to be more efficient department.... even though I think its a crock. I think that most teachers honestly want to do right by the students. but the unions do not care. The unions care about keeping the status quo, or making it easier for the teachers... they do not want to budge an inch to change a system that is producing horrible results... I am sure there are extreme examples of good schools... I live in southern california... lets take Los Angeles school district for an example. less then a 50% graduation rate of kids who start kindergarten there... wow don't know what school anyone has gone to but thats failing in my book. another stat, between 2000-2010 there are 170,000 less 5-9 year olds in the los angeles area.. yet whenever the idea of firing teachers is brought up they never mention this fact, they instead say there are more kids.... ummm what? how? they say that class sizes are bigger? What with kids leaving to go to charter schools at a faster rate then ever, and 170,000 less kids to draw from how are they coming up with their numbers?
but teachers vote to forgoe a raise to help out... when they are already in the red, and already not producing great results? umm ok... like I said that is a concession I guess... not a great one, but I will give you that? Do you by chance have any better examples to share?

in regards to email and social networking... there are plenty of opportunities for the post office to become efficient, the union is what is standing in the way. The article clearly states many examples where new technology and ideas can be inserted to help things out... but are not...why? psst... the unions....

I appreciate you giving an example though. And like I said I honestly think teachers mean well as a whole, and a different breed of people who want to help others... they in and of themselves are not the problem

 

[hongkongfooey]

These graphs destroy the entire premise of this thread. Productivity continues to rise while employment and earnings have flatlined. That isn't due to unions, which only have an 11.9% participation rate.

I don't know about all union shops but at my workplace, many of the union workers would prove these graphs wrong pretty quick. Between the constant cell phone use, wandering, and the frequent cigarette breaks it is a wonder anything is accomplished.
I won't get into the drug and alcohol use on campus.

 

[Empty Hands]

I don't know about all union shops but at my workplace, many of the union workers would prove these graphs wrong pretty quick. Between the constant cell phone use, wandering, and the frequent cigarette breaks it is a wonder anything is accomplished.
I won't get into the drug and alcohol use on campus.

So once again a single person's stories from their daily life are more valid than data collected from the entire nation of 300 million + people?

I live in an affluent exurb of Miami and no one I know is desperately poor or hungry. Therefore poverty does not exist.

 

[WC_lun]

There are unions out there that have taken too much. I will give you guys that dislike unions that. I have seen it first hand. I have also seen unions that have worked out quite well for both employees and employers, for instance many teacher's unions and hospital unions. I've also seen companies that would benefit from union representation. When the employer takes advantage of the empployees, the employees should be able to band together to have a better position or leverage.

I think the problem here is judging every union by the standards of the worst unions. If one union does it, it doesn't mean all unions do it. There are some great examples of unions that have harmed the companies they are in, GM and Chrysler pop to mind immediatley. These are examples of unions that over-reached and became something they were never meant to be. However, using this logic to destroy all union would be a great mistake. Remember why unions were created in the first place? Do you really want to go back to that era?

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

There are unions out there that have taken too much. I will give you guys that dislike unions that. I have seen it first hand. I have also seen unions that have worked out quite well for both employees and employers, for instance many teacher's unions and hospital unions. I've also seen companies that would benefit from union representation. When the employer takes advantage of the empployees, the employees should be able to band together to have a better position or leverage.

I think the problem here is judging every union by the standards of the worst unions. If one union does it, it doesn't mean all unions do it. There are some great examples of unions that have harmed the companies they are in, GM and Chrysler pop to mind immediatley. These are examples of unions that over-reached and became something they were never meant to be. However, using this logic to destroy all union would be a great mistake. Remember why unions were created in the first place? Do you really want to go back to that era?

really with the teachers unions? I think they are among some of the worst.
when the californias teachers union spends millions upon millions to push its agenda to get more for their teachers, rather then spend millions upon millions to improve conditions for students, when the results across the state are horrible, does not seem like a win win to me in anyway.

 

[hongkongfooey]

So once again a single person's stories from their daily life are more valid than data collected from the entire nation of 300 million + people?

I live in an affluent exurb of Miami and no one I know is desperately poor or hungry. Therefore poverty does not exist.

Yeah, pretty much.