Did the Unions kill innovation and efficiency?

[LuckyKBoxer]

The USPS has historically placed the interests of its unions first. That hasn't changed. In March it reached a four-and-a-half-year agreement with the 250,000-member American Postal Workers Union, which represents mail clerks, drivers, mechanics, and custodians. The pact extends the no-layoff provision and provides a 3.5 percent raise for APWU members over the period of the contract, along with seven upcapped cost-of-living increases. The union is happy.

this is a quote in the following article, one that talks about the USPS in such dire shape that its going to go insolvent. Billions in debt, but plenty of options that will not only ease the problems, but quite possibly reverse them and the Union, combined with current government rules seem to be holding it hostage.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4325951...postal-service-running-out-options/?gt1=43001

have the unions in their frenzy to get more and more for the workers gone to far? Have they replaced the attributes that helped make our country so great... innovation, and efficiency, with attributes like greed, and selfishness?
Our systems in this country are broken. The postal service should be one of the easiest to fix, but is a perfect example of several things working together to prevent it from succeeding. The Unions being one of the biggest reasons, Federal Government rules being the next. Is there anyone that can look at this and say, no the Unions are making this better, they are working for the American Good?? It seems to be to be sheer greed of the unions, selfishness to take what they can get and not work for the greater good of the country on whole, or the postal service as an entity. I think rules need to be changed to remove the power the Unions have in government functions, they need to be banned from all government work I feel, they have become a monster.

 

[Twin Fist]

same post office that is going bankrupt? and they are giving raises?

outlaw unions NOW

 

[billc]

YES, OF COURSE THEY DID....

Thank you.

 

[punisher73]

Anecdotal story...

Back when I was in HS Government class, the teacher was talking about how when he was in college, he worked at a local unionized factory (It's MI, and I believe it was a GM plant, but it was close to 20 years ago he told the story). Anyways, they had to meet a certain quota of parts per day. If you exceeded your quota, then you could earn a bonus. He said that being in college and needed money, he found that he could far exceed the quota and earn the bonuses with no trouble at all.

He said, that after a couple of weeks of this, the main union person pulled him aside and told him to stop. The reason being was that he was only there for the summer and everyone else was there long term and that they had purposely got the quotas lowered and if the management saw how easy it was to hit the quotas on a regular basis than they would raise them back up. He went on to tell him that the "quota bonus" was only to be used once in awhile by people when they needed a little bit extra.

So yes, I think that unions erode the work ethic in places.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Anecdotal story...

Back when I was in HS Government class, the teacher was talking about how when he was in college, he worked at a local unionized factory (It's MI, and I believe it was a GM plant, but it was close to 20 years ago he told the story). Anyways, they had to meet a certain quota of parts per day. If you exceeded your quota, then you could earn a bonus. He said that being in college and needed money, he found that he could far exceed the quota and earn the bonuses with no trouble at all.

He said, that after a couple of weeks of this, the main union person pulled him aside and told him to stop. The reason being was that he was only there for the summer and everyone else was there long term and that they had purposely got the quotas lowered and if the management saw how easy it was to hit the quotas on a regular basis than they would raise them back up. He went on to tell him that the "quota bonus" was only to be used once in awhile by people when they needed a little bit extra.

So yes, I think that unions erode the work ethic in places.

I am not shocked by the story, but I am kind of shocked that a college professor spoke badly of a union. Ooops my bad its a high school teacher, I have found they are no where near as liberal and biased as college professors... my bad

 

[Omar B]

Unions do a good job of turning the emplyees against the empolioyers, as if the hold them hostage with labour (or a lack of it). How about this union? You make it so hard to produce that I'll shut down my plant and movie it to Mexico, Japan, Korea, India, Indonesia, they you can go as slow as you want.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Unions do a good job of turning the emplyees against the empolioyers, as if the hold them hostage with labour (or a lack of it). How about this union? You make it so hard to produce that I'll shut down my plant and movie it to Mexico, Japan, Korea, India, Indonesia, they you can go as slow as you want.

unfortunately I think you have a point. I think Unions have a big part of the blame for all the jobs moving overseas. Not the full blame, and not even the majority of the blame, but they are definitely more then a bit player in that problem.

 

[granfire]

Unions do a good job of turning the emplyees against the empolioyers, as if the hold them hostage with labour (or a lack of it). How about this union? You make it so hard to produce that I'll shut down my plant and movie it to Mexico, Japan, Korea, India, Indonesia, they you can go as slow as you want.

Actually happened in my area.

The Plant management asked for concessions, like a copay to health insurance etc, rather minor cuts over all. Union refused. Plant shut down.

Same with the other big plant in town. Union demands, unwillingness to cooperate...the only thing that saved that plant was the big Firestone tire fiasco....

However: As bad as they are these days, without unions we'd be up the creek without a paddle.

 

[MA-Caver]

same post office that is going bankrupt? and they are giving raises?

Wny not... sounds all American to me.

Unions do a good job of turning the emplyees against the empolioyers, as if the hold them hostage with labour (or a lack of it). How about this union? You make it so hard to produce that I'll shut down my plant and movie it to Mexico, Japan, Korea, India, Indonesia, they you can go as slow as you want.

unfortunately I think you have a point. I think Unions have a big part of the blame for all the jobs moving overseas. Not the full blame, and not even the majority of the blame, but they are definitely more then a bit player in that problem.

Yes, with Unions demanding higher wages and shorter hours how can they even think of competing against long hours and small wages overseas?
Used to be that American quality was best in the world and it still is in a lot of things ... for a high price. But as stated by the topic... innovation and efficiency have gone down hill... not totally but noticably. Was it the Unions? I dunno but like other things they are partially to blame.

Actually happened in my area.
The Plant management asked for concessions, like a copay to health insurance etc, rather minor cuts over all. Union refused. Plant shut down.
Same with the other big plant in town. Union demands, unwillingness to cooperate...the only thing that saved that plant was the big Firestone tire fiasco....
However: As bad as they are these days, without unions we'd be up the creek without a paddle.

This is true... about 30-40-50 years ago even 60-to 80 years ago when workers felt good about getting an honest day's pay for an honest day's labor and not being worked to the ground in the process. Unions helped with that.
Problem was when the amount of the dues started increasing and the money was piling up because nobody was using the dues for which they were intended (to pay for court/attorney costs in case of labor suits, etc and so on)... all that money ... just sitting there... hmmm... nobody will miss a few 10,000 ... then mob bosses and other organized crime started getting their fingers into it... An employer refuses to pay mob protection money... so the mob influences the workers (via unions) to strike ... wow a lot easier than blowing up the plant ...
Just a few examples I'm guessing (could be wrong)... but either way... Unions used to be a very good thing for the American worker... but all that money created the greed which created the corruption which gave a sense of power, which likely (helped) influenced the decision of the American business owner to move their plants elsewhere.

 

[Empty Hands]

These graphs destroy the entire premise of this thread. Productivity continues to rise while employment and earnings have flatlined. That isn't due to unions, which only have an 11.9% participation rate.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well I was originally just going to post

Question: Did the Unions kill innovation and efficiency?

Answer: No

But then I saw Empty Hands' post and all I really need to say now is...

nuff said.

 

[Ken Morgan]

De-industrialization of the western economies, brought about by the rise of the second and third world in manufacturing.

It’s no longer 12 countries competing for the same international sale, it’s 120….

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

These graphs destroy the entire premise of this thread. Productivity continues to rise while employment and earnings have flatlined. That isn't due to unions, which only have an 11.9% participation rate.

I will bet these graphs do not take into any account technological advancements lol

 

[Empty Hands]

I will bet these graphs do not take into any account technological advancements lol

No, they don't. Yet, productivity continues to rise, while the claim was that unions have "destroyed innovation and efficiency". Based on the evidence, the claim is clearly wrong.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

No, they don't. Yet, productivity continues to rise, while the claim was that unions have "destroyed innovation and efficiency". Based on the evidence, the claim is clearly wrong.

um no its not wrong. those simple graphs do not prove anything. Once again I am surprised at how you seem to think that a graph that does not include many factors that are involved actually means anything.
but hey I am glad to see you are waving that union flag so vigorously.

actually tell you what Empty hands, I challenge you to show me a specific union policy, or specific union stance that has specifically been innovative or increased efficiency, something recent say in the last 20 years.
I am curious to see what you come up with.

 

[Twin Fist]

how about, the unions are nothing but a fund raising arm of the left and need to go away OR not be allowed to donate to politicians

 

[Empty Hands]

actually tell you what Empty hands, I challenge you to show me a specific union policy, or specific union stance that has specifically been innovative or increased efficiency, something recent say in the last 20 years.
I am curious to see what you come up with.

Now you're shifting the goalposts and putting the onus of evidence on me. Logical fallacy. You made the claim, you back it up.

You decry my graphs for not showing everything, and then continue to believe in what you want to believe in based on a few anecdotal, personal stories. As incomplete as that data might be, it could never be as incomplete as a collection of personal stories.

What is demonstrated in this thread is not evidence, but faith.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Now you're shifting the goalposts and putting the onus of evidence on me. Logical fallacy. You made the claim, you back it up.

You decry my graphs for not showing everything, and then continue to believe in what you want to believe in based on a few anecdotal, personal stories. As incomplete as that data might be, it could never be as incomplete as a collection of personal stories.

What is demonstrated in this thread is not evidence, but faith.

I provided the initial article that is full of unions quotes that directly contradict innovation and efficiency, some anecdotal evidence in the story has since been provided. Besides the fact mentioned of companies moving union jobs out of an area or even the country because of how inefficient the unions try to make things, or how they fight innovation.
you claim they are efficient and provide innovation. You post a worthless graph again that does not take any other items into account. So I am specifically asking you for only 1 little policy or item that a union does that promotes efficiency or innovation... it should be easy for you to provide if its true. Of course I expect to see nothing from you except complaints about moving the goalposts... btw this is not soccer or football its a conversation.

 

[Empty Hands]

you claim they are efficient and provide innovation.

I made no such claim. I said they did not destroy it, which is obvious since productivity continues to rise. You can twist all you want, but that basic fact remains.

I am not obligated to produce evidence for claims I did not make. It's conspicuous however that you are producing no evidence for your claims.

You post a worthless graph again that does not take any other items into account.

Compared to a handful of quotes and selected stories? Evidence always wins against anecdata, no matter how incomplete.

Of course I expect to see nothing from you except complaints about moving the goalposts... btw this is not soccer or football its a conversation.

Educate yourself.

 

[Omar B]

unfortunately I think you have a point. I think Unions have a big part of the blame for all the jobs moving overseas. Not the full blame, and not even the majority of the blame, but they are definitely more then a bit player in that problem.

I've seen it happen many times in recent years. Looking at the issue from the standpoint of a guitar player I can tell you lots of stories. Fender/Squire, Jackson/Charvel, Kramer, Washburn, and I could go on, all great American guitar companies who made really great instruments. Now most of these companies have the bulk of their work being done overseas, by workers in factories that can't even play are are just pushing buttons on a machine. This is a huge deal when you are a musician are intonation and feel are greatly affected by a millimeter's difference, that can literally destroy an instrument. Something that looks perfect to the eye and the measurments match the template can sing or it can be just a really detailed wall hanging depending on your luck, because non of those workers are doing it by hand and playing the instrument.

That's why you cannot get a good guitar for any less than $1000 anymore, and the market for older American made instruments made by craftsmen (and why i say old I'm talking mid-80's-early 90's vintage and before).