Did a little training with Tony Dismukes

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JowGaWolf

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A "little" training? How many pints of sweat did you lose? :cool:
ha ha ha. It was a decent amount. I'll put it this way. If EWwwww. is the response for touching other people's sweat then training would have only been 5 minutes long.
 

marvin8

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Tony may have had more success by drawing his opponent in, as Floyd did. The Choy Lay Fut video shows some reactions and positions of opponents before getting hit..

Dominick Cruz drills controlling the space, luring an opponent to throw the rear hand, then times a takedown. I believe Cruz uses too much movement and speed but is still effective.


I'm not sure about that. I'm pretty sure Tony threw more overhands then Floyd did in that entire fight. I could be incorrect about the following assumption but I'm willing to bet that Tony's Boxing partner picked up on the pattern of the numerous long fists. It would have been like only throwing Jabs or only throwing hooks. If those are the only punches you are feeding to your opponent then your opponent will figure out what the next punch will be and how to deal with it.
Not sure what "that" is.

The concept is "drawing the opponent in." The techniques on how to do that are numerous, including your fight video of Floyd, Cruz and the Choy Lay Fut fight videos or Jow Ga ones. It's up to the practitioner to take the concept and apply (think of) their own techniques. (I don't know exactly what Tony did which is why I italicized "may.")

I'm not sure how Tony was swinging his arms so I don't know if the technique was breaking or if he had a nice long swing. I'm assuming that this is the wheel punch that would have KOed his sparring partner. The problem with this one is that the swing targets only one spot, so even if the arms look crazy those punches are going to always go to the head, so the defense is to tighten up and guard your head. When your opponent does that then you have to include variation.
Right. For example, you throw a straight punch to set up a round punch as Floyd did, not 2 horizontal punches.

Does Jow Ga lure punches as you described. Yes. Do we lure that way with the long punches? No. Once you send the punch that is pretty much it. There's no need to draw people in with the long fist punches, since the punches work like a blender. You throw one and load the next one up. If you don't have one loaded then you kick or move to reset.
If the opponent defends your punches, you can get them to open up, draw them in (lure) or get them stuck and shuffle in (follow), which can be seen in the Choy Lay Fut video.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Yep. I had some good success with landing punches with that hand which was hidden behind me. Typically I set everything up with a sequence of wide swings and then the hidden rear hand came out in a straight line right down the middle and landed flush.

I didn't have anyone to record video, but it felt like I was getting some good long range swings.

Exactly the issue I was having. I wasn't using kicks and I wasn't using my boxing punches or my grappling, so the only variety I had to use was different combinations of angles for my swing and I didn't come up with enough variation to keep my partner confused after the first coupe of minutes. I've been experimenting since then shadow boxing with some different combos.

Once I've spent some time polishing my Jow Ga punches in isolation, then I think I'll have significantly more success by integrating the rest of my technical repertoire. I think my sparring partner will have a much harder time reading the long fist swings when they also have to deal with my jabs and crosses and kicks and sweeps and grappling.
One variation that works well for me is that right after the downward long fist (overhand), instead of rolling it into a backfist. Raise that same arm and send it back under his chin. If you can reach the chin then use it to blast through the guard. If he punches while you are in the process of doing thins, then use that swinging arm to interfere with any incoming punch. As that goes through follow up with an upper cut. Long fist upper cuts are a little than how boxers do it. Boxers like to get tight with there upper cuts. With this one you want to be long.

This punch is called Pow Choi. Drills 0-27 are recommended. The walking and advancing of the punch is vital. Some schools teach to extend the upper cut high. You want to keep your upper cut long and end at your head level or the head level of your opponent. F


This is the concept behind the Pow Choi





j
 

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For one thing, always trying to win every round means that you have to bring your "A" game every time - the techniques and tactics you are best at.
The way that I solve that problem is to set up a rule such as:

If you can get a head lock on me, that round is over, and you win that round. Test it for 15 rounds and record the result.

In other words, you can only use a pre-defined technique to win a round. Trying to obtain a head lock in a fist flying environment is not easy. This way you are forced to try something that you are not good at.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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A funny but realistic way of thinking about sparring to learn is that I can't learn much if Tony chokes me out and I find myself waking up every 10 minutes lol
If you spar against Mike Tyson. He drops his level and let you to knock him down. You have recorded the whole fight on video. You then put your video online. People may say that Mike Tyson is no good anymore, and you are better than Mike Tyson. How can Mike Tyson be able to protect his reputation after that?

My SC teacher held heavy weight national SC champ title in China. Through all his life, he would never allow any of his students to take him down (even in teaching/training).
 
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JowGaWolf

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Not sure what "that" is.

The concept is "drawing the opponent in." The techniques on how to do that are numerous, including your fight video of Floyd, Cruz and the Choy Lay Fut fight videos or Jow Ga ones. It's up to the practitioner to take the concept and apply (think of) their own techniques. (I don't know exactly what Tony did which is why I italicized "may.")
I'm not sure about your statement as it refers to Tony because I don't have enough to go on about how the sparring went. I could be thinking one thing and something totally different could have actually happen, in reference as to why the technique became less effective.. For starters, it's not like Tony has been using these strikes for 5 years lol. So I'm just not sure. Everything at this point is just and educated guess until Tony fills in the gaps that we have with the information that we are missing.
(I don't know exactly what Tony did which is why I italicized "may.")
Yep this is where I am. I've eaten a lot of punches learning long fist strikes. A lot of trial and error, so I'm trying to remember times when I failed and why I failed. I know variation was a big issue for me. Also trying to start the long fist strike was a challenge. Trying to use the long fist strikes as the first punch feels like trying to get a big truck to accelerate really fast. It took me a while to figure out that the techniques hide "the wind up" ,It wasn't until I ate a bunch of punches that I worked that one out. lol.
 
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JowGaWolf

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If you spar against Mike Tyson. He drops his level and let you to knock him down. You have recorded the whole fight on video. You then put your video online. People may say that Mike Tyson is no good anymore, and you are better than Mike Tyson. How can Mike Tyson be able to protect his reputation after that?
Not realistic. At least in my life. I have no problems like what your scenario describes. This is the last thing in my life that I would need to worry about. I would worry about a whale pooping on me before I spend time worrying about people thinking that I'm not good in Kung Fu. People have seen me get tossed around in the gym, get pinned, get put into headlocks that I can't get out of. And people still come to me asking for advice.

Realistically if you are sparring at an intensity where you are at risk of being knocked out, then you probably shouldn't be lowering your defensive skill level.
 
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JowGaWolf

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This doesn't work so well in a boxing environment where one of the primary methods of defense is to pull the head back just far enough so that the opponent's punch comes up just short. In that context, my swing which whiffs a few inches in front of his face is a legitimate miss.
I I'm sure that will change once you have gotten used to using footwork and the arm swings. If you are already missing only by a couple of inches then you are well within range. where a 2 inch shuffle or step 2 inches more will all you to contact. If he was using your lead swing to guage distance then you can use a shorter swing on the first so that you can hide the true distance.

The only real way to know for sure is to break out the pads and put the pads out of range and see if you can step while swing in order to close the distance so that the following swing is well on target. I'm sure it will be easier to confuse his sense of distance if you could use other striking techniques as well.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I just don't have the granular level of control that I do with boxing punches where I can do anything from gently tapping the skin to blasting full power.
I still can't do this with any of the swings. I'm not even sure if that's possible without going slow.
 
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JowGaWolf

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My SC teacher held heavy weight national SC champ title in China. Through all his life, he would never allow any of his students to take him down (even in teaching/training).
I'm thinking that this must have been a cultural issue that existed during your youth. None of this type of concern existed in my youth. Nor have I had teachers who looked at me and decided they wouldn't teach something to me because they thought I would challenge them. I really think it's cultural.
 

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I'm thinking that this must have been a cultural issue that existed during your youth. None of this type of concern existed in my youth. Nor have I had teachers who looked at me and decided they wouldn't teach something to me because they thought I would challenge them. I really think it's cultural.
In Chinese culture, MA reputation is worth to be guarded with your life. After you have obtained a championship record, you try to guard with your life and not to lost it. Sometimes it forces you to stop your tournament career and turn down challenges in order to protect your title. Too many people try to defeat you and earn quick reputation overnight without going through the normal tournaments process.
 
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marvin8

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The concept is "drawing the opponent in." The techniques on how to do that are numerous, including your fight video of Floyd, Cruz and the Choy Lay Fut fight videos or Jow Ga ones. It's up to the practitioner to take the concept and apply (think of) their own techniques. (I don't know exactly what Tony did which is why I italicized "may.")

If the opponent defends your punches, you can get them to open up, draw them in (lure) or get them stuck and shuffle in (follow), which can be seen in the Choy Lay Fut video.
I could be thinking one thing and something totally different could have actually happen, in reference as to why the technique became less effective.. For starters, it's not like Tony has been using these strikes for 5 years lol. So I'm just not sure. Everything at this point is just and educated guess until Tony fills in the gaps that we have with the information that we are missing.

Yep this is where I am. I've eaten a lot of punches learning long fist strikes. A lot of trial and error, so I'm trying to remember times when I failed and why I failed. I know variation was a big issue for me. Also trying to start the long fist strike was a challenge. Trying to use the long fist strikes as the first punch feels like trying to get a big truck to accelerate really fast. It took me a while to figure out that the techniques hide "the wind up" ,It wasn't until I ate a bunch of punches that I worked that one out. lol.
However again, we can take the fighting principles and posted fights where similar long fist strikes "actually happened," your fight video of Floyd Mayweather and the Choy Lay Fut video.

IP7izxc.gif


1. Weight on front foot.
2. Shift weight to back foot (roll back/pull), while stepping ahead with front foot. This sets up mechanics for the right hand (push). Target (head) is between both feet.
3. Issue overhand right by pushing off both feet, while shifting weight to front foot.

N8uLIuD.gif


Your Jow Ga posted drills drill technique. While, Dominick Cruz, MMA and muay thai drills include concepts, controlling the space, luring, listening and timing an attack.
 
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JowGaWolf

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However again, we can take the fighting principles and posted fights where similar long fist strikes "actually happened," your fight video of Floyd Mayweather and the Choy Lay Fut video.

IP7izxc.gif


1. Weight on front foot.
2. Shift weight to back foot (roll back/pull), while stepping ahead with front foot. This sets up mechanics for the right hand (push). Target (head) is between both feet.
3. Issue overhand right by pushing off both feet, while shifting weight to front foot.

N8uLIuD.gif


Your Jow Ga posted drills drill technique. While, Dominick Cruz, MMA and muay thai drills include concepts, controlling the space, luring, listening and timing an attack.
I posted the drills because it includes concepts more than what is used in the MMA video. For example a example the MMA video doesn't show clearing head concepts. The guy that got the elbow to the face didn't use clearing hand technique/concept. I also think his stance may have been incorrect for the technique he was trying to use. But for the moment training the movement is priority so that the concepts will be easy to follow and the application will be easier to pull off.
 

marvin8

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I posted the drills because it includes concepts more than what is used in the MMA video.
No, it doesn't. It may be more clear if I change the comma to a semicolon, "MMA and muay thai drills include concepts: controlling the space, luring, listening and timing an attack." Cruz explains the difference in correct and incorrect timing. The timing concept is applied to striking too.

For example a example the MMA video doesn't show clearing head [hand] concepts.
Yes, it does. Both the MMA and Choy Lay Fut videos control the hands. Again, the fighters strike their opponent without getting hit. They display correct timing in their fights. Cruz demonstrates and drills controlling the space, luring the opponent to throw the rear hand, then slipping and changing levelswhich is applied to striking too.
 

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I would not say "programming or feeding a pattern." Because, a good fighter may change their defensive moves. There are 5 layers of defense (not just grabbing/pulling the lead hand).

I will elaborate and attempt to connect the dots. An opponent may react to the 2 horizontal power punches by stepping back. Tony mentioned after awhile his opponent started to evade his Jow Ga attacks. Tony may have had more success by drawing his opponent in, as Floyd did. The Choy Lay Fut video shows some reactions and positions of opponents before getting hit..

Floyd follows the fighting concepts and principles that I already mentioned (e.g., lure, listen, control, dissolve, attack, stick, adhere, join & follow), which has depth. Floyd uses an "asking hand" to see how Miguel will react to the jab. Then, he punches inside the guard then outside the guard. Floyd does not use big power punches but finesse to control the opponent.

Floyd leads Miguel to move into his punches by controlling the space and body and hand positions. It may take further explanation and study for someone to understand.

Dominick Cruz drills controlling the space, luring an opponent to throw the rear hand, then times a takedown. I believe Cruz uses too much movement and speed but is still effective.

Dominick Cruz is one of the reasons that I had an interest in learning the long fist style swings in the first place. He doesn't use them exactly like Jow Ga or other long fist CMA systems, but the underlying concept is there, mixed in with all the other elements of his arsenal.
 
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JowGaWolf

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No, it doesn't. It may be more clear if I change the comma to a semicolon, "MMA and muay thai drills include concepts: controlling the space, luring, listening and timing an attack." Cruz explains the difference in correct and incorrect timing. The timing concept is applied to striking too.


Yes, it does. Both the MMA and Choy Lay Fut videos control the hands. Again, the fighters strike their opponent without getting hit. They display correct timing in their fights. Cruz demonstrates and drills controlling the space, luring the opponent to throw the rear hand, then slipping and changing levelswhich is applied to striking too.
Show me in the videos where the concept of rolling a backfist is used to clear an incoming punch. Show me in the video the rising punch and how that is used to strike the face or break through a guard.

Show me a vertical backfist to the side of the neck when someone tries to slip the long fist? the MMA Video doesn't show the power generation for Pow Choi.

Same as the footwork to step off line to reduce the risk of getting nailed with an elbow. The MMA videos also don't show how to string one long gist strike into a second long fist strike.

I can show most of these from the drill clips. Application distance and timing I can show through sparring videos.

One thing that I would caution kung Fu practioners is not be too quick with taking fight clips from boxing and MMA and say that what was done there is the same thing that is taught in the school. Sometimes it is bu sometimes it's not

The risk is that the person trying to learn the kung fu ends up trying to throw the punch as shown in MMA and not as shown in kung fu techniques. The knuckles that I see MMA fighters use when the do there long fist strikes are not the same ones that I use when I do similar strikes. it doesn't seem like a big deal but it is. Especially if it's a functional significance.
 

marvin8

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Show me in the videos where the concept of rolling a backfist is used to clear an incoming punch. Show me in the video the rising punch and how that is used to strike the face or break through a guard.
The Floyd Mayweather, MMA and Choy Lay Fut videos control the hands. They don't chase hands, They control them. What is important is the difference in timing.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Dominick Cruz is one of the reasons that I had an interest in learning the long fist style swings in the first place. He doesn't use them exactly like Jow Ga or other long fist CMA systems, but the underlying concept is there, mixed in with all the other elements of his arsenal.
Definitely not how I throw them. It good to see that the fighters had a similar reaction to the incoming punches. Trying to figure out long fist punches during a match is the worst time to work on that puzzle.

The way he throws them leaves him open to a front kick, his opponents get knocked around a lot so they probably are in a preservation mode.

A while back I mentioned "sitting in the storm" This is were I would apply that so I could send a hard front kick.

The aggressiveness to drown his opponent in punches is different in Jow Ga. We don't pound our way in like that. I can imagine how tiring that would be. For us the aggressive level would be the same but we would be more conservative in the energy output level. Shorter bursts in comparison.

I'll have to take a closer look at one of his fights to be sure. I only watched highlights.
 
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JowGaWolf

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The Floyd Mayweather, MMA and Choy Lay Fut videos control the hands. They don't chase hands, They control them. What is important is the difference in timing.
Control the hands aren't the concepts that I speak of. I already know the control the hands. I was mentioning the concepts that weren't there in those videos.

The best way for this to be clear is to simply try to use them. First time experience is that the feel considerably slower and ineffective. When they feel like that then it's because some concepts aren't being applied, mailing the ones used to generate power.
 

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Control the hands aren't the concepts that I speak of. I already know the control the hands. I was mentioning the concepts that weren't there in those videos.
Yes it is, only different methods.
 
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