Development of Ki

[Scout_379]

I feel that I have a good grasp on the concept of Ki, and the idea of intrinsic energy. But living in Canada, I do not have the benefit of teachers that can help me in the actual development of ki and awareness of ki. I have learned some basic meditational methods such as imagining/feeling and picturing an inner fire in the tanden, or picturing a light from above entering the body and flowing throughout. As for awareness, I have learned to feel the intent of an attack, but only thorugh my opponents facial expressions and subtle tension before the attack. NOT by intutition as I have seen others do. I am training towards my black belt, and I wish to have a deeper understanding of the softer arts.

If you are more experienced in the development of ki, please share your methods and knowledge. I am particularly interested in different methods of meditation.


If you do not believe in the value of Ki or meditation, please do not bother posting your arguements, thank you.

 

[Firona]

While visualization is the first step there comes a point where you might want to try to learn to control the flow. The method I have come up with for this is to lie down somewhere queit and comfortable and relax your entire body. Then you make every intention to spring up without actually moving or tightening your muscles. In theory your Ki should flow through your body to prepare for the suddon movement (it feels either tingly or irritating at first and you might end up twitching a bit durring this) After you do this for awhile you can learn to send it to specific areas and to use it while moving and tightening your muscles to add the extra strength and control that Ki is for. Hope that helps.

 

[Scout_379]

lol yeah did that... but I thought it was just my body getting high off the extra oxygen because of my relaxed state and deep breathing exercises. I have felt this b4, the tingly sensation, but I think you have to get past that and go deeper. One of my sensei's told me of the flow i think you're talking about. and I'v seen some diagrams but I don't know if I can really trust those. i recently began meditating again, but i haven't gone as "deep" as I have done when I used to practice it b4.

thanks for your help! I think I understand it better now

 

[muaythaifreak]

can you bend spoons and move things without touching them?

 

[Scout_379]

can you bend spoons and move things without touching them?

Honestly, why even post? some agree on ki, others don't.

You don't. ok. so why make fun of those who do?

......there is no spoon.......

 

[nlmantis]

Japanese "Ki" and Chinese "Chi" are the same, I was trained in the system of Mas. Oyama Kyokushin where Ki is developed in similar breathing exercises as Chinese Qi Gong, of which I practice Iron Cloak and Wuji. I heard the term Chi can be translated to "energy/myst" (a.o.) representing minuscule particles of energy present in everything.

The "Ahhh" sound heard in Sanchin kata is a variant of Ki which Chinese call "hard Qigong", where all your focus in body structure and energy is directed forcefully to a certain point/area. This in contrast to "soft Qigong" where the flow of energy itself is used as a shield. Compare hard Ki as a shield of rock-hard ice vs soft Ki as a fast river of water. The Kiai can be seen as a release of hard ki projected through your target.

Development of Ki is about development of structure and alignment in your technique, combined development of mental focus on that "one point in time/space", and combined with development of breathing and energy projection.

I advise to take up something like Tai Chi from a master. It doesn't take more than a month to feel the flow of Ki through your body when you are doing the proper exercises ("standing on stake" for example) regularly (15 min a day). You will notice much improvement in your style, whatever it is.

Not surprising, Ki/Qi is one of the many commonalities in Karate and Kung Fu. I have seen a release of Mas. Oyama on video-tape where he demonstrates Ki training in mid-winter with bare chest for over an hour straight, quite cool (literally).

Anyways, my $0.02..

 

[Tom Duffy]

Just train, train ,train train. Only way it's gonna happen.

Respects, Tom
www.risword.com

 

[SenseiBear]

for the first decade of training - I listened to all the talk of energy, ki, chi, etc and smiled and nodded, while inside saying, yeah, sure... Then one day I started to become aware of things I hadn't really believed in... now I believe, and my developing awareness continues.

Drills that I feel have helped:

Push Hands
Sticky Hands
Post Standing
Qi Gong
Tai Chi
Tan Jun Breathing
Breathing Forms
- Sanchin
- Hooking Fist
- Dragon Breathing

SB

 

[Scout_379]

could you explain a few those please?
Sticky Hands
Post Standing
Tan Jun Breathing
Breathing Forms
- Hooking Fist
- Dragon Breathing

thank you!

 

[SenseiBear]

Sure:

Sticky Hands (Chi Sao), A Wing Chun drill, in its initial stages of practice looks/feels much like push hands to me, later you add fighting techniques.

Post Standing (Zhan Zhuang) is a standing meditation, a form of Qi Gong

Tan Jun Breathing - Korean based breathing drills (and a bad pronunciation at that, should likely have been Dahn Juhn)... The ones I do closely resemble the Ki Cho Jah Ki (wringing out ki) exercises of Kuk Sool Won

Breathing Forms:
- Hooking Fist (A Mai Chuan (and I believe A Mai is Abad Martial Art International)) - a breathing form by Kajukenbo master Prof. Alan Abad.

- Dragon Breathing - a Gun Fu breathing form, created from a longer Hung Gar set by Sifu Charles Wilk, while studing under Sifu Isidro Archibeque. (I personally see some similarities between it and the 5 Animals & 5 Elements Form)


In looking back, and noticing that these are mostly Korean/Chinese based, and I am in the General Japanese Arts forum, I guess I should have explained more to begin with... but I often think of what I do as "Karate"... Many trails, one mountain sort of thing...

Scout - if you ever get a chance to hop a ferry and come a little south, I'd be happy to get together for a workout.


-SB

 

[Tydive]

Scout,

There is a distinction that I think needs to be made here about Chi / Ki. What is being described in the other posts is being aware of Chi within your own body and is a useful first step. However if you want to be able to know your partners intent then you need to develop a more comprehensive awareness.

The first step is to understand that Chi never stops. It is the energy of life that is in everything. Next understand that we are all nothing and everything, in other words we are all one thing, and that one thing is nothing. Zen meditation can get you there, but like they say it can take a few years, but in truth it takes just a moment of awareness.

In the Indian Yogi philosophy it's called Prana, and they understand that this energy is just a manifestation of your thoughts, emotions or Mind. Your goal is to be in charge of your mind. Stop any thought that is not NOW. At this point you will begin to notice that any thought sends out energy and you will start to percieve the difference between your energy and others energy.

Once you can detach from yourself you can take it to the functional level beyond the physical. How you do this is by keeping your center, pushing out the energy (or more accuratly your awareness of Chi). So get centered, push out that energy to fill the area around you, remember to go under the ground as far as you go up, to go forward equal to backward, left equal to right... you get the idea.

Once you can do the above you will "feel" the intent of everyone around you and be able to respond in the correct manner.

Now for some practical things you can do to get in touch with the energy while waiting for your enlightenment experience, you may have already had an enlightening experience, it's not like I can tell from here .

First get centered.
Now rub your hands together, pretend you are holding a ball of energy between your hands. Compress the ball and expand the ball. Feel it. Now make sure your focus is still on the ball of energy in your center. Understand that there is no difference between the balls. Find the connection, of how the energy flows in your body. The feeling of chi is NOT chi, it is just your body reacting to the energy flow. Those who tell you that chi is the heat or whatever are missing the point. You get heat/sensation as a byproduct.

Second find a partner (this can be anyone, significant other, child, etc...).
Get the ball of energy going till you can feel it strongly, then slowly move it back and forth close to your partners hand (held away from the body). You want to feel for differences in the "pressure" without touching. With practice you will be able to feel when the other persons Chi is touching you, vs when your chi is touching there chi or your chi is touching them.

Third
Start at a distance of 10 feet and with energy up (fill the space around you) slowly approach the person and feel when your energy contacts them. You want to create a very stong "presence" at the limit of your range. Thus you will feel when they are in contact range (don't forget to go underground). Do the same exercise as in step two, but with your entire body.

Fourth
Be able to change the energy of your center to effect the person. In this step you begin to understand that the only energy that can be in your presence is energy that is already inside you. As Dr Dyer says, what do you get when you squeeze an orange? Orange Juice. Why? Because that is the only thing inside the orange. If you get squeezed (someone applies pressure to you) then whatever comes out has nothing to do with them, but everything to do with you. What this means is that you can send out relaxing energy to have them relax, or create fear, doubt.. any emotion really.

Last
Blend with the energy around you. Allow it to express itself while not changing you. Now you will know what they are going to do as they think it. With your MA training you then choose the correct response. At this point your energy awareness permiates everything around you.

edit: check out Fourteen Lessons in Yoga Philosophy by Yogi Ramacharaka you can get it off amazon. Remember that this stuff came by way of India in the first place, so go to the source for good info.

Hope that helps.

 

[Scout_379]

thank you! I have heard this before. And tried it too. especially:

Once you can detach from yourself you can take it to the functional level beyond the physical. How you do this is by keeping your center, pushing out the energy (or more accuratly your awareness of Chi). So get centered, push out that energy to fill the area around you, remember to go under the ground as far as you go up, to go forward equal to backward, left equal to right... you get the idea.

Once you can do the above you will "feel" the intent of everyone around you and be able to respond in the correct manner.

The thing is that it didn't work for me. I didn't feel a thing. Although it felt as if i were doing it right, i was only kidding myself.

 

[bignick]

alright...i've expressed my feelings on ki before...but just some advice i'd like to throw out...if this is the goal of your training...give yourself time...i've had the oppurtunity to see some high ranking hapkido practitioners...and somebody asked one...what is ki? and he went through the routine explanations and said..."Cool stuff, huh? But it takes a long time to develop...i was a fourth degree(black belt) before i started to figure out what was going on..."

just like any aspect of training...if you're frustrated...just relax and realize things take time to learn

 

[Tydive]

Scout... like bigN says, it takes time and hard work. It took me about 20 years to get to the point where I could enter a centered state on a consistant basis. My last student took eight years to get to the point where he could feel intent and openings. I have been doing this for over 30 years and still don't consider myself a master of chi simply because I am not NOW 100% of the time, which is the goal.

Oh, and it's easier if you do the exercises without any expectations. Just do them for the sake of doing them. Same with all your practice, detach from outcome.

And if it felt like you were doing it right, chances are you were, but because you think it's "hard" to do when in fact it is the most natural thing in the world... well you can see how people get confused.

 

[Sin]

Meditation is the key. Ki isn't just imagining, its the feeling you get when you get feel an emotion tot he extream, such as anger, happiness, sadness. he idea is to channel this emotional energy.

 

[heretic888]

In my opinion, ch'i and ki are quite different animals.

If you are going by the Three Treasures (jing, ch'i, shen) understanding in Chinese arts, then ki as it is usually described in traditional Japanese budo differs greatly with ch'i. Ki is more similar to what the Chinese call shen (shin in Japanese).

Some of the more recently Chinese-influenced arts (kenpo, karate-do, aikido, etc) seem to be going with the traditional Chinese understanding of ch'i. Nothing wrong with that, but its not typically how the subject is treated by the old koryu.

Laterz. :asian:

 

[DavidCC]

Prof Yang Jwin Ming has writen several good books on teh subject, check out the YMAA in Boston and they now have schools in Canada.

 

[SenseiBear]

In my opinion, ch'i and ki are quite different animals.

If you are going by the Three Treasures (jing, ch'i, shen) understanding in Chinese arts, then ki as it is usually described in traditional Japanese budo differs greatly with ch'i. Ki is more similar to what the Chinese call shen (shin in Japanese).

could you explain your understanding of the differences between these concepts?

SB

 

[heretic888]

could you explain your understanding of the differences between these concepts?

SB

As DavidCC previously mentioned, Dr. Yang Jwin Ming has written some excellent books detailing the Three Treasures concept in Chinese thought (applied to both ch'i gung and martial arts). I would recommend them as a reference.

Ki is generally approached very different in budo, than ch'i is in wushu. From my observation, anyway.

Laterz. :asian:

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i have studied japanese arts and tai chi, TCM and shiatsu.......they all pretty much agree on the concept of chi/qi/ki.
shin is something completely different.
as far as development of ki........you dont need to develop it. it's already there. its your development of awareness and control.....which is usually the focus of any art i've studied.
its not going to come overnight, or from a few training sessions where you feel particularly ki-like.
constant awareness and training, meditation, breathing and insight will do it.......and it also helps to have some guidance.
i think this is the first post i have made about my beliefs on ki, as a lot of modern martial artists tend to poo-poo on the idea that there is something intangible(which i think is quite tangible) that we can control to our benefit.
dont go for the quick fix and then dismiss it when you havent experienced it.
but dont think you are going to perform magical feats with it either.
there is too much misinformation out there on the subject, and too many unknowledgeable people speaking on the subject. am i a knowledgeable and qualified source?
that depends on who you speak to. i consider myself a novice and ive been trying to cultivate awareness for almost 13 years.

shawn