Defense v. multiple opponents

[StudentCarl]

Thought I'd fish here for suggestions. One of the challenges at my black belt test will be fighting 3 black belts at once. They get pads; I don't. Really the only rule is don't send anyone to the hospital. We really don't train for multiple opponents. I figure some things are clear: keep moving and don't get surrounded, engage any opponent only briefly, prefer low kicks. I'll be twice the age of all my opponents, and it's one of the last tasks of the testing, so I'm looking for any good ideas to help dish it out to my opponents. I do think some of my opponents lean to olympic style sparring, so they won't expect things like knee blocks and hand techniques to the head. I'm looking forward to this more than any other part of the test.

Carl

 

[jks9199]

There's really no good way to fight a group, especially if they know how to work together. My guess is that this is really more a test of your spirit and will to fight than actual fighting ability.

That said... there are things you can do. Real deal -- you'd want to finish each of them quickly, rather than engage in a protracted battle. If I have to deal with 3 (or more) people for real, and have to do it unarmed, I'm doing permanent, crippling damage to them as fast and as mean as I can. I'm destroying knees, striking throats or groins... you get the idea.

But you're not in a real deal. You're in an exercise. So you can't do that... but you can use some other principles and strategies. Stack your opponents. In other words, move in ways that limit their ability to come at you, and force them to come through or around each other. In a like vein -- use your mobility; outrun and out maneuver them. Don't get so occupied with one that you forget about the others.

One drill you can do now to start getting ready is something we've called "The Pit of Dispair." Take several of your training partners, and have them surround you, holding pads or kicking shields or both. Their job is to press in on you, forcing you to fight continuously for the duration of the exercise. You'll have to turn and deal with different targets or they'll run you over, pushing you into another pad. Start at 1:00 minute; this is a lot harder than you might think!

 

[Buka]

That's one way to go. Maybe try this.
You keep moving, yes. But not to get "not surrounded". You always attack, evade, attack. You take away THEIR space, not the other way around.You will be in a "target rich environment" while they will be dealing with a narrow, always forward angling, moving target. You herd THEM together, from the second the instructor yells GO,

My guess is you'll first line up with the three of them lined up opposite you. Try this drill ahead of time. Get three of your workout buddies line up opposite you. When you say go, everyone WALKS three steps. They all step towards you, to trap you, to get you.( Doesn't matter if they would or not, it's part of a learning process.) You walk three steps as well, angling forward to the outside of either end man. You should be in a position, relative to theirs, where one is shielding the other two from getting to you in a straight line.

You walk through this several times, always slightly different because they'll be adjusting too, and you start to learn angles used to impede their ability to get to you en-mass. You IMMEDIATELY attack the one closest to you, trying to force him to step back, further taking their space and cramping their kicking distance, their timing and their foolish game plan of attacking YOU.

When you practice that drill, try your first step with alternating feet. Find which foot first allows you to land in your best offensive position after three steps. Then start practicing at different distances apart, taking note which foot on odd and even steps.

If you take it to them from the git go, and never ever let up, nor slow down, you will take them so out of their game you'll own them.

Another drill, this for your vision - in case they do surround you, or you start that way in the test.
Stand about ten feet in front of your buddy. Stare into each others face.
Behind you have two assistants, about ten steps back, about five feet to each side of you.
Keep starring into your buddy's face while the assistants slowly take small steps straight ahead (in step). (If they were to reach you they would be five feet to each side of you)
When your peripheral vision picks them up, YELL STOP. Now, look around, take note how close up they were on either side.
Repeat the drill. Except, this time, focus your eyes about a foot in front of you on the floor. Have the assistants repeat their steps. Yell stop again. Take note how much quicker your peripheral picked them up. How much farther they were away. Looking down lowers your "cone of vision". Cone refers to the basic shape of your field of vision. Lowering it, taking out the sky portion, increases how far the edge of the cone behind extends behind. Good for multiples.

There's more, but I'll leave you with this. With multiples, attitude is everything. If you don't think you can beat multiples the prophecy will be self fulfilling. And you NEVER fight for ties. No "I'll take out as many as I can before they get me". That is the attitude of defeat. If you KNOW you can beat multiples, you will beat them every single time.

 

[Cyriacus]

Mm.

Multiple Opponent Sparring is impossible to Plan for, entirely.
You can make a Plan, but you cannot really have ANY idea of how they are going to attack you.
1V1, you have some idea.
But this aint 1V1.

The pertinant thing is that you dont forget that there are other people.
In what Multiple Opponent Sparring ive done, the most frequent mistake is getting busy with one person, then getting blindsided.

 

[Earl Weiss]

There is a book "What the Masters Know" . I know, bad title but pretty good book. It has diagrams for multiple prson encounters.

Anyway the strategy is is simple . As indicated above, don't get surrounded, circle / move to the outside. Basicaly keep one attacker between you and the others. If they get on 2 sides of you run /move between and past them and circle to the outside. Grab one (The smallest / easiest) and use them as a shield between you and the others as you trash them.

Of course if 2 face you at 11:00 and 1:00 it might be an opportunity to show off with a twin foot kick.

 

[Earl Weiss]

A short term strategy, especialy in a situation where you may not be sure who or how many adversaries there are i move to a corner with your back to the corner. No one can get behind you and you get to see all attacks and attackers in a 90 degree area.

I should have noted above that you cannot be a passive fighter if ounumbered. You will lose a war of attrition if they know how to fight.

 

[miguksaram]

Throw yourself on the floor in a fetal position, stick your thumb in your mouth and sob uncontrollably. Then when they all come to figure out what is wrong quick pounce up and nail each of them in the nads, while screaming "I HAVE THE POWER!!"

Good luck.

 

[Manny]

In my shodan test I had to confront three guys one was almost 6' 4" (2.00 meters) and had bad time trying to defend myself of these three guys, the only thing we could wear was a groin cup and shin pads. It's almost imposible don't get hit by three guys, so cover your face your theet will apreciate this, and don't let this guys to corner you, also keep moving and try if you can to grab one of them and aply an arm lock and use this guy as a shiled if possible, however the best advise I can give you is not to get corned or suorounded.

Manny

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Thought I'd fish here for suggestions. One of the challenges at my black belt test will be fighting 3 black belts at once. They get pads; I don't. Really the only rule is don't send anyone to the hospital. We really don't train for multiple opponents. I figure some things are clear: keep moving and don't get surrounded, engage any opponent only briefly, prefer low kicks. I'll be twice the age of all my opponents, and it's one of the last tasks of the testing, so I'm looking for any good ideas to help dish it out to my opponents. I do think some of my opponents lean to olympic style sparring, so they won't expect things like knee blocks and hand techniques to the head. I'm looking forward to this more than any other part of the test.

Carl

Carl,
,
This is a great question. First, make every attempt at putting any and all obstacles (if any) between you and as many of the opponents as possible. Secondly, don't wait for all three to engage you first. This only allows them to surround you and/or bum rush you into a bad position. Go for the closest attacker and do what is necessary to 'take him out' (at least as far as testing purposes are concerned of course). Then try your best to use him as a barrier/shield between you and the other two attackers. Fight from behind him with strikes and kicks. Throw him into one of the attackers while you go for the other one. Keep moving and turning. If you know any balance displacement i.e. throws then this is the time to use them. Preferably throwing one attacker into another or into the path of another in order to change their approach. Make good use of your VOICE!!! Screaming in someone's face is a great way to distract them momentarily. Stun and run. Don't be predictable and DON'T FIGHT THEIR FIGHT, make them fight YOUR fight. Once again...use your VOICE to your advantage, you'll be surprised at how well a 'war cry' in someone's face/ear will work to your advantage. It messes with their OODA loop big time.

If you're grabbed, don't use force to resist. Go WITH their grasp and pull and allow it to bring you into THEIR danger zone for a quick strike. I can't understate this. In Aikijujutsu training (I'm a PCR instructor) we went against three opponents trying to grapple with you. Rather than resisting their pull or using force against their force we basically became like 'Gumby' and stayed loose in our limbs, go with their pull. If I had one person grabbing each arm and pulling in opposite directions I simply turned and twisted which knocked them into each other. If they pull you, go with it and explode on them with a strike or whatever.

Best of luck.

 

[ATC]

It is more of a mental test than anything. Expect to get hit and get hit alot. There is only so much movement that you can do before you are winded and that movement stops. The one thing that works best is to attack the weakest and keep him inbetween you and everyone else. I have even seen some clinch the weakest and use him/her as a sheild.

It will be a lot of fun.

Good luck on your test and congrats on being up for testing.

 

[ATACX GYM]

That's one way to go. Maybe try this.
You keep moving, yes. But not to get "not surrounded". You always attack, evade, attack. You take away THEIR space, not the other way around.You will be in a "target rich environment" while they will be dealing with a narrow, always forward angling, moving target. You herd THEM together, from the second the instructor yells GO,

My guess is you'll first line up with the three of them lined up opposite you. Try this drill ahead of time. Get three of your workout buddies line up opposite you. When you say go, everyone WALKS three steps. They all step towards you, to trap you, to get you.( Doesn't matter if they would or not, it's part of a learning process.) You walk three steps as well, angling forward to the outside of either end man. You should be in a position, relative to theirs, where one is shielding the other two from getting to you in a straight line.

You walk through this several times, always slightly different because they'll be adjusting too, and you start to learn angles used to impede their ability to get to you en-mass. You IMMEDIATELY attack the one closest to you, trying to force him to step back, further taking their space and cramping their kicking distance, their timing and their foolish game plan of attacking YOU.

When you practice that drill, try your first step with alternating feet. Find which foot first allows you to land in your best offensive position after three steps. Then start practicing at different distances apart, taking note which foot on odd and even steps.

If you take it to them from the git go, and never ever let up, nor slow down, you will take them so out of their game you'll own them.

Another drill, this for your vision - in case they do surround you, or you start that way in the test.
Stand about ten feet in front of your buddy. Stare into each others face.
Behind you have two assistants, about ten steps back, about five feet to each side of you.
Keep starring into your buddy's face while the assistants slowly take small steps straight ahead (in step). (If they were to reach you they would be five feet to each side of you)
When your peripheral vision picks them up, YELL STOP. Now, look around, take note how close up they were on either side.
Repeat the drill. Except, this time, focus your eyes about a foot in front of you on the floor. Have the assistants repeat their steps. Yell stop again. Take note how much quicker your peripheral picked them up. How much farther they were away. Looking down lowers your "cone of vision". Cone refers to the basic shape of your field of vision. Lowering it, taking out the sky portion, increases how far the edge of the cone behind extends behind. Good for multiples.

There's more, but I'll leave you with this. With multiples, attitude is everything. If you don't think you can beat multiples the prophecy will be self fulfilling. And you NEVER fight for ties. No "I'll take out as many as I can before they get me". That is the attitude of defeat. If you KNOW you can beat multiples, you will beat them every single time.

This and...

Carl,
,
This is a great question. First, make every attempt at putting any and all obstacles (if any) between you and as many of the opponents as possible. Secondly, don't wait for all three to engage you first. This only allows them to surround you and/or bum rush you into a bad position. Go for the closest attacker and do what is necessary to 'take him out' (at least as far as testing purposes are concerned of course). Then try your best to use him as a barrier/shield between you and the other two attackers. Fight from behind him with strikes and kicks. Throw him into one of the attackers while you go for the other one. Keep moving and turning. If you know any balance displacement i.e. throws then this is the time to use them. Preferably throwing one attacker into another or into the path of another in order to change their approach. Make good use of your VOICE!!! Screaming in someone's face is a great way to distract them momentarily. Stun and run. Don't be predictable and DON'T FIGHT THEIR FIGHT, make them fight YOUR fight. Once again...use your VOICE to your advantage, you'll be surprised at how well a 'war cry' in someone's face/ear will work to your advantage. It messes with their OODA loop big time.

If you're grabbed, don't use force to resist. Go WITH their grasp and pull and allow it to bring you into THEIR danger zone for a quick strike. I can't understate this. In Aikijujutsu training (I'm a PCR instructor) we went against three opponents trying to grapple with you. Rather than resisting their pull or using force against their force we basically became like 'Gumby' and stayed loose in our limbs, go with their pull. If I had one person grabbing each arm and pulling in opposite directions I simply turned and twisted which knocked them into each other. If they pull you, go with it and explode on them with a strike or whatever.

Best of luck.

^^^This and...


...Lemme add to what you already touched upon: use pushes,knees,trips,hand techs to the head and body repeatedly,and dive roll escapes (yes I said it; you'll be shocked at how effective they are at gaining space and surprising your opponents for that critical 1/2 a second that allows you to separate from them) along with what was already said above. Also grab a few sparring partners and start off with low impact multifight clinch work,strikes and escapes from same using what you already know in combination with the various posts above and on this thread.I've done it,and I know you can do it...if YOU know you can do it.

 

[WC_lun]

I've had to do this test as well. It sucks, because in reality there is no "good" way to fight multiple opponents. I can tell you my strategies, but I won't tell you they'll neccessarily work, because after all, there are THREE opponents. As mentioned, keep your opponents lined up as best as possible. One of the few down sides to having the numbers advantage is the tendancy to get in each others way. Use it Be effecient and effective. Don't pose, play, or dance, like I see many guys do in single opponent sparring. If you move, there should be a result in your opponents to your advantage. Don't be flat footed. I know this is only a drill and not for real, but when they engage you must make them pay a price. If not it encourages them. As soon as contact is made, make them go into recovery mode. If someone is trying to recover thier balance, facing, etc, that is a moment they are not attacking you. Don't be afraid to use grappling skills to tie up, throw into each other, and use your opponents as a shield. The reverse of his coin is don't let one opponant take all of your focus. So if your using an opponent as a shield, be ready to throw him away quickly. Stay on your feet at all cost.

You will get hit..a lot. Accept that now and it make this drill easier, in my opinion.

 

[ATC]

Just a little something to get you in the mood.

[yt]SXXEnDLShz0[/yt]

 

[jks9199]

Just a little something to get you in the mood.

[yt]SXXEnDLShz0[/yt]

And important thing to note in this. Through the first 1:30+, they really only came at him 1 at a time. Even the group that came at him en masse really attacked individually, just as a mob. Were even two of them to have really coordinated an attack -- the outcome would likely be very different. (Unless, of course, the scriptwriter was on his side. )

Odds are good that your opponents won't attack in a coordinated form. But for the real deal -- realize that a real multiple person attack follows a couple of patterns. In one, it's an ambush by a mob. One may distract, and the others attack; if they've worked together and are practiced at it, you won't know what's hitting you until two or three are on you. Another is a simple beat down: a mob buries the victim. The classic cop "pig pile" is one example of this...

 

[Earl Weiss]

In the Ip man video it shows the 2 big knuckles bloodied which is interesting since the many chinese styles are big on using the 3 small knuckles

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Thought I'd fish here for suggestions. One of the challenges at my black belt test will be fighting 3 black belts at once. They get pads; I don't. Really the only rule is don't send anyone to the hospital. We really don't train for multiple opponents. I figure some things are clear: keep moving and don't get surrounded, engage any opponent only briefly, prefer low kicks. I'll be twice the age of all my opponents, and it's one of the last tasks of the testing, so I'm looking for any good ideas to help dish it out to my opponents. I do think some of my opponents lean to olympic style sparring, so they won't expect things like knee blocks and hand techniques to the head. I'm looking forward to this more than any other part of the test.

Carl

Carl, when is your test?

 

[StudentCarl]

9/17, 'bout 3 weeks. Why?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Coming up in about a week. How are you feeling about it? Have you been able to get any training vs. multiple opponents ahead of time to get a feel for what you'll need to do?

 

[StudentCarl]

Not the kind of full-speed workup I'd like, but I've done some 3/4 speed light contact work with some teammates to work movement and vision. I'm feeling willful...hostile and mobile. I think the real key will be when I get smacked good to not fixate on killing whoever hit me and stop moving enough. This is really about relying on my training, martial, military, and other, and I'm good with that.

 

[Tony49]

We do this drill a lot and everyone one makes the same mistake they actually try to fight. This never works in a Dojo setting where you can't actually hurt your partner. So here is how we do it.

Step 1. Don't use too man kicks. Use them to get in or as your attacker is retreating
Step 2. Pick opponent #1 and use him as a shield form #2
Step 3. As #3 circles grab or push #1 and into #3 preferably trip him at the same time.
Step 4. Attack #2 and use him as a shield for #3
Then Repeat throwing #2 into number #1

The key is to always have one guy on the ground or crashing into one of your attackers giving you time to fight only one guy at a time. The trips and throws would equate to your polk to the eyes, chops, groin kicks everything you would do in the street but can't at the dojo. What I mean by this if you perform one of these deadly techniques the opponent would fall to the ground for a little bit before recovery.

Tips
1. Use your punches to setup your grabs and trips.
2. Always fight forward using your angles.
3. Use one guy as a shield.
4. Don't fight any one opponent for more than a couple of seconds else no one else is coming after you.
5. Balance is your friend take theirs from them.

P.S. If you fight like this you can keep it up for a while, while your opponents get tired off falling down and standing up.