David Peterson's new book on Wong Shun Leung

[KPM]

That Andrew Ma has a lot to say from what iv read from him ! Anyone know anything about him ?

Never heard of him! But obviously he was speaking of a Ho Kam Ming early in his Wing Chun learning. What he has to say is completely irrelevant to Ho Kam Ming after he established himself with Ip Man and got good at Wing Chun. I'm sure everyone here had similar problems when first starting out!

But this does bring up an interesting point. It appears that Ip Man was not Ho Kam Ming's first teacher. Andrew Ma "opened his hands" to Wing Chun it seems. In the traditional Chinese approach, it would some times be said that Andrew Ma was Ho Kam Ming's first "Sifu" and therefore he shouldn't refer to anyone else as "Sifu." Just as Ip Man never referred to Ng Chung So as his "Sifu" even though he learned the majority of his Wing Chun from Ng Chung So. Just an interesting side point.

 

[Danny T]

Joy Ho Kam Ming was no wck god either. lol

"It pity to say that all those who were first trained by me and particularly Ho Kam Ming had never say a thank to me. Quite disappointed. Before I brought Ho Kam Ming to Master Yip Man, I had taught Ho Kam Ming with Siu Nim Tau and Chum Kiu. I had difficult time in teaching Ho who then, practised other type of Chinese Kung Fu. By then, Ho had difficult time at punching centre line. I had used harsh words - such as "you will never practised Ving Tsun Well". However, I made many suggestion to Ho Kam Ming to improve his Ving Tsun. Skill. Nevertheless, Ho had never appreciated my advises."

Hang Lum Andrew Ma senior disciple of Master Yip Man.

"...all those who were first trained by me... never say a thank to me."
"I had taught HKM with SNT & CK. I had difficult time in teaching Ho... Ho had difficult time at punching centre line..."

Was the problem HKM or the instruction of Hang Lum Andrew Ma?
How much time did HKM spend training under HLAM?
If HKM was so bad why would HLAM bring him to IM... Advanced training... When his basics were poor...
HLAM taught CK when SNT was poor?

Hmmmm...

 

[Vajramusti]

Never heard of him! But obviously he was speaking of a Ho Kam Ming early in his Wing Chun learning. What he has to say is completely irrelevant to Ho Kam Ming after he established himself with Ip Man and got good at Wing Chun. I'm sure everyone here had similar problems when first starting out!

But this does bring up an interesting point. It appears that Ip Man was not Ho Kam Ming's first teacher. Andrew Ma "opened his hands" to Wing Chun it seems. In the traditional Chinese approach, it would some times be said that Andrew Ma was Ho Kam Ming's first "Sifu" and therefore he shouldn't refer to anyone else as "Sifu." Just as Ip Man never referred to Ng Chung So as his "Sifu" even though he learned the majority of his Wing Chun from Ng Chung So. Just an interesting side point.

 

[dudewingchun]

^^ Was there a point to that post ? ^^

 

[Vajramusti]

CMA is full of egos and Andrew Ma has his share.Ma and others assisted Ip Man in the latter's public classes.
Ip Man's real teaching was in private classes with selected students.Two different worlds
You can google Hang lam Andrew Ma for his facebook page
and his letter to the VTAA. MA's beef with HKM is that HKM suppsedly did not thank Ma.
In his letter Ma's main target is Chow Tse Chun

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

In response to the discussion about PB verses DP etc., will just add my 2 cents.
While I haven't trained with either of them, I have trained with a group branched off from DP's Melbourne school.
This Melbourne school is now run by Darren Elvey while DP teaches in Malaysia.
I have been to several of Darren's seminars and he is very good. As with all sifu's, he has taken the Melbourne school in a different direction while wtill being true to the WSL method. There are WSL lineage conferences that he attends and he is in regular contact with WSL sifu's in HK. I have trained with these guys and have seen PB students and sifu's practice on youtube. The application looks almost identical to what Darren Elvey teaches.

Darren Elvey is very direct and no-nonsense. He doesn't mess around with fancy techniques, traps etc. He has a good strong horse. He has great structure and with a boxing background knows his stuff.

While I don't train so much with these guys these days as I am mostly CST focussed (and trying to get my own school going), I respect what they do and believe it is fit for the purpose that they are focussed for and train in. I have personally seen the teacher of this club easily dominate (in chi sao) wing chunners from the other big schools in my city who have come to visit.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ I don't see anything "funny" about those comments. Sounds like an honest observation and opinion to me.

 

[Vajramusti]

Ip Man had group classes supervised by senior students including Ma .where people got started. Some good folks in the classes went on to take private lessons with varying arrangements and for varying lengths of time.HKM did just that- went on to private learning from Ip Man for a longer period than others. Ip Man also came to visit and correct students in HKM's classes.
Andrew Ma was not HKM's sifuand Ma not surprisingly. has his ego He has a nice facebook page of his own.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Ip Man had group classes supervised by senior students including Ma .where people got started. Some good folks in the classes went on to take private lessons with varying arrangements and for varying lengths of time.HKM did just that- went on to private learning from Ip Man for a longer period than others. Ip Man also came to visit and correct students in HKM's classes.
Andrew Ma was not HKM's sifuand Ma not surprisingly. has his ego He has a nice facebook page of his own.

HKM is one of the only Yip Man lineages I haven't had the chance to come into contact with. Unfortunately, none in NZ or Australia. Maybe when I visit HK, I can find someone who does it.

 

[guy b.]

I have trained with these guys and have seen PB students and sifu's practice on youtube. The application looks almost identical to what Darren Elvey teaches.

What DP teaches and what PB teaches are fairly different. I don't know about Darren Elvey

 

[Phobius]

What DP teaches and what PB teaches are fairly different. I don't know about Darren Elvey

If DP and PB teach so vastly different (or fairly different) styles. Does that mean WSL was not as good at teaching? Or does it mean he wanted people to make VT a style of their own? Or is there some other reason behind this? Dont think personally there could be much room of doubt that both DP and PB are well trained people in terms of WSLVT and have had the correct teaching and continued respect for WSL.

Not meant as a disrespect. We all know WSL was very good in WC, but there is no disrespect in wondering if difference in teachings could be by some lack in talent of tutoring others. Some people are fighters, others teachers. Not many are both.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Admittedly when I watch PB videos of him chi sao, it looks stylistically different. However, recently someone showed me youtube videos of one of his instructors teaching his own school, I would honestly wouldn't not have been able to tell the difference in approach or application.

Every Wing Chun lineage I see is SOOOOOO different from each other. LT, WC, CST, WSL, HKM etc are really all very different. But when I saw that PB instructor teaching, I was like "that's exactly the same stuff that is taught in the Melbourne school".

There is definitely a WSL flavour that you can see across all his students. People in WSL say Gary Lam is a little bit less direct than others, but you can still see the WSLness in there.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

If DP and PB teach so vastly different (or fairly different) styles. Does that mean WSL was not as good at teaching?

I have been reflecting on this lately, but not about WSL. One of the frustrating thing I have found in CST lineage is that every teacher I have met has quite a different take on what CST taught. We all basically want the same thing, but people have different approaches to get there. It's interesting that even while CST was alive, people would take different things away from what they learned from him and focus on that. Does that make him a bad teacher? No, he had enormous patience when teaching. I think you get this when you have someone who has a huge depth of knowledge and skill. Then this person (with this depth) teaches students, and a student gets stuck or magnetised to a certain concept that they learned. They might find huge depth in just that one particular aspect. Then they go open a school and their school continues with that focus.

So if there is huge variance in WSL schools, that is actually a testament to WSL's depth of knowledge and skill. So you also have it in CST lineage, but lets look at Yip Man. All his famous students teach in a very different way from each other. Again, I think this is a testament to his huge depth in knowledge and skill. Allwell-knownknown students took particular aspects of this and ran with it making an approach based on that.

Even in Aikido with O-sensei, you have all these lineages. Each lineage has a strength and a focus that the lineage holder must have taken away from O-sensei.

So in short, no, it does not make WSL a bad teacher.

 

[KPM]

I

So if there is huge variance in WSL schools, that is actually a testament to WSL's depth of knowledge and skill. So you also have it in CST lineage, but lets look at Yip Man. All his famous students teach in a very different way from each other. Again, I think this is a testament to his huge depth in knowledge and skill. Allwell-knownknown students took particular aspects of this and ran with it making an approach based on that.

.

I agree with you. I think it makes perfect sense that people took away different things from what they were taught. Some chose to really develop along one line and some along another. That doesn't necessarily mean that someone's learning was deficient. It makes much more sense to conclude that if someone is doing WSLVT quite differently than every other WSL school out there....it is likely because he took part of the teaching and developed it in his own way.....NOT that every other person doing WSLVT differently from him is different because there was something wrong with either the way they were taught or their ability to grasp and learn what was being taught.

 

[NewburyParkTKD]

What is this book about?

 

[wckf92]

What is this book about?

See posts 1, 4, and 23 (?)

 

[Phobius]

I have been reflecting on this lately, but not about WSL. One of the frustrating thing I have found in CST lineage is that every teacher I have met has quite a different take on what CST taught. We all basically want the same thing, but people have different approaches to get there. It's interesting that even while CST was alive, people would take different things away from what they learned from him and focus on that. Does that make him a bad teacher? No, he had enormous patience when teaching. I think you get this when you have someone who has a huge depth of knowledge and skill. Then this person (with this depth) teaches students, and a student gets stuck or magnetised to a certain concept that they learned. They might find huge depth in just that one particular aspect. Then they go open a school and their school continues with that focus.

So if there is huge variance in WSL schools, that is actually a testament to WSL's depth of knowledge and skill. So you also have it in CST lineage, but lets look at Yip Man. All his famous students teach in a very different way from each other. Again, I think this is a testament to his huge depth in knowledge and skill. Allwell-knownknown students took particular aspects of this and ran with it making an approach based on that.

Even in Aikido with O-sensei, you have all these lineages. Each lineage has a strength and a focus that the lineage holder must have taken away from O-sensei.

So in short, no, it does not make WSL a bad teacher.

That was not my question. I did not say he was a bad teacher.

My question was if people that train WSLVT think the reason there is a difference is intentional or bad. That is why my second question which was removed from the quote stated "Or does it mean he wanted people to make VT a style of their own?"

I of course believe personally that all WT/WC/VT should be personal, reason being that it is a concept based fighting and my way of following concepts are never gonna be identical to anyone else. Because if my actions are identical then the concepts are not being followed since I am myself different.

There is however great interest, related to this book, to know if students of WSLVT does not believe in individualistic shapings of WSLVT. If their belief is that the system is so complete that any alteration would mean defects/flaws then that would change the meaning of the text in the book itself.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Sorry to misunderstand you.

I can't speak to for the rest of the WSL community, but from what I have heard and seen from the WSL guys in Auckland and Melbourne, WSL style should evolve and can be streamlined and improved. I believe WSL said himself something along the lines of "throw away what is useless". So already there is an aspect of never ending improvement and refinement in the DNA of WSL wing chun. The Melbourne and Auckland school also adhere to the slogan "Simple, Direct and Efficient". I am not sure if that is taken from WSL himself or not. But they measure all techniques and applications against this. Is it simple, direct and efficient? If not, throw it away. Can it be more simple, direct and efficient? If so do it.

I was a member of a big wing chun school for a few years where there really was this sense that the system was perfect and no changes were needed to it. We were really discouraged from questioning things too much. And all the positions and shapes had to be perfect.

In the WSL school here in Auckland, there is open debate with the teacher. The teacher will also often reflect and change something if he thinks it is not working as well as it could or if something works better. I think this is a very WSLish approah and a pretty healthy one in general.

 

[LFJ]

Some variation in WSLVT is for the same reason there's variation in YMVT. That being that some students spent significantly more time studying with WSL or YM than others, some indeed spent very little, and some actually put their skills to the test weekly while others just played chi-sau in class.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

I would disagree with that. Take the most dedicated YM students and there is still massive variance.

And putting your skills to the test, is going to result in variance based on your experience in those fights. It is said WSL adjusted what he learned based on his experience in fighting. So he took his wing chun in a certain direction that worked for him. I don't think YM expected his students to go and test their skills in fights and all reach the same conclusion as a result.