Dantian - Does it really exist?

[windwalker099106]

"Dantian - Does it really exist?
The approach of Cheng Man Ching treats the Dantian as something real, physical – and thus as a subject of scientific scrutiny. Cheng Man Ching himself thought of the Dantian as being organic, a sort of pocket, which would grow in athletes or practitioners of martial arts."

thoughts ?

 

[Same Trick51]

The whole pelvis area is of course of outmost importance, there’s a reason why the central bone of that area is named -sacrum - sacred.

Exercise that keeps the musculature in and around that area healthy and strong are preferred

 

[Marsha Larts]

I don't know anything about CMC's take on dantian, but the guy in the video gives one of the worst explanations I've ever seen.

It isn't too difficult to create the conditions by which a visceral 'stirring' can be felt within the lower abdominal cavity - the primordial quickening of dantian, so to speak.

In some internal practices, there are certain conditions by which that quickening is controlled and 'manipulated' which involves subtle postural 'adjustments' in conjunction with breath, and most importantly, intent.

 

[windwalker099106]

@Marsha Larts,

Thought his take was interesting, based on reflections of his teacher...

"The connection of the Dantian to the immune system as it is portrayed by Cheng Man Ching could provide a possible link to the health effects of Taijiquan, whereas the non-existing correlation of its development with the practising of martial arts in general or Taijiquan or Qigong in specific does indicate that its development is not subject to mysterious (nei gong) techniques, but a simple consequence of coherent physical training of any (bodily) discipline."

For those unfamiliar with the term Dantian (丹田, Dāntián) — it refers to the body’s energetic and physical center, the place where movement, breath, and awareness are thought to integrate.

In Japanese, known as Hara (腹, はら) — the center of gravity and intuitive awareness.
In Korean, the same concept called Danjeon (丹田, 단전) — the “field of elixir,” where Ki (氣 / 기) is cultivated.

In the West, the idea of “center” or center of gravity (CG) is used to describe either a physical point or a feeling of balance.
CG used in Judo

"the body needs to learn, what the mind already knows"

Is it the same idea — or are they fundamentally different ways of understanding the body’s center?

 

[isshinryuronin1]

It is the hub upon which the spokes and wheel depend on. One may debate this importance in spiritual or internal terms, but it's certainly true in the external physical sense in terms of providing a solid core for technique to be based on.

 

[Marsha Larts]

For those unfamiliar with the term Dantian (丹田, Dāntián) — it refers to the body’s energetic and physical center, the place where movement, breath, and awareness are thought to integrate.

That's along the lines of what I understand from my own experience of its 'presence' in the practice of taiji and qigong. Presence being the operative word as it pertains to awareness of what is felt.

"the body needs to learn, what the mind already knows"

That's the opposite of the idea I was taught and what I follow in my own practices;
The mind needs to learn what the body already knows

The body doesn't understand form unless the mind is allowed to force that form into the body through a rote repetition of sorts.

The body only understands the shape of movement until the mind gets busy correcting the body. All that correction is an effective method of developing form for the purpose of affecting techniques, and there's nothing wrong with that. It just follows a different path than the one taken in the training of taiji. And I think you know that.

In exploring what the body already knows, one approach is through the practice of dynamic qigong. Intent 'suggests' an action or task and the body is left to its own devices of attending to the task while a passive awareness observes the method(s) and means by which the body responds to the suggestion. Only after the body has informed the mind of its method do the shape and form begin to integrate through mutual adaptation according the morphology and energetics of the body, and the spatial and physical orientation cues of the mind.


All of that aside, the psychophysiology of dantian development involves the innervation of the connective tissues on the surfaces of muscles and tendons. A lot of that innervation is accomplished by being still while suggesting action and then remaining still.

I'm loath to utter or write the word, but it's in these articles about the tissues I'm referring to as they form a relational interaction between front and back in the cultivation and conscious development of dantian:

The Anterolateral Abdominal Wall - Muscles - TeachMeAnatomy

The abdominal wall encloses the abdominal cavity, which holds the bulk of the gastrointestinal viscera. In this article, we shall look at the layers of this wall, its surface anatomy and common surgical incisions that can be made to access the abdominal cavity.

teachmeanatomy.info

The Posterior Abdominal Wall - Muscles - Fascia - TeachMeAatomy

There are five muscles in the posterior abdominal wall: the iliacus, psoas major, psoas minor, quadratus lumborum and the diaphragm. We shall look at the attachments, actions and innervation of the these muscles in more detail.

teachmeanatomy.info

There's more (a lot more) to the development of dantian that is rarely - if ever - discussed in terms of muscular and sensory innervation having to do with RCPM muscles and the role they play in the actual 'bodywork' of dantian.

 

[Appledog44]

"Dantian - Does it really exist?
The approach of Cheng Man Ching treats the Dantian as something real, physical – and thus as a subject of scientific scrutiny. Cheng Man Ching himself thought of the Dantian as being organic, a sort of pocket, which would grow in athletes or practitioners of martial arts."

thoughts ?

I don't have any thoughts about this, I have first hand experience. But let me try and explain it in two or three ways because people will say, 'I don't see a dantian on a medical chart.'

Well, the reason why you don't see the dantian on a medical chart is because you're looking at a medical chart in English. Frankly, the dantian is the area in your stomach approximately behind your navel and down, from the front of your stomach to the back. Approximately from the qihai to the mingmen and down. It can be different sizes and so forth and it can move around. This is the definition of the dantian. If you don't believe it exists you must not believe you have a stomach.

If you mean the dantian as some kind of spiritual thing, well it is not really that at all, but a physical existential thing. Meaning, as you do more and more of this kind of exercise you begin to feel your muscles in the core working more and more, which is only natural. The specific feeling you get is called qi kan IIRC, and it drills into your core and 'reveals' your dantian. It feels like this because the movements are specifically designed to train and engage your core in a 3d, 360-degree way, so it begins to feel like there is a ball inside. But it is really an entirely physical thing -- kind of like sore pectoralis major, minor and anterior deltoids after using a fly machine. It isn't that all three muscles are one muscle, but when you train them together like that they all work out at the same time. You don't see that on a medical chart either, and you won't feel it, either, unless you do the exercise, same thing.

That's what a real, physical dantian is. There's absolutely no question in my mind about it. But this is just an admission that (insert martial art here) provides a good core workout. Not a big leap. I think, however, there may be a deeper question here.

 

[Same Trick51]

@Marsha Larts,

Thought his take was interesting, based on reflections of his teacher...


For those unfamiliar with the term Dantian (丹田, Dāntián) — it refers to the body’s energetic and physical center, the place where movement, breath, and awareness are thought to integrate.

In Japanese, known as Hara (腹, はら) — the center of gravity and intuitive awareness.
In Korean, the same concept called Danjeon (丹田, 단전) — the “field of elixir,” where Ki (氣 / 기) is cultivated.

In the West, the idea of “center” or center of gravity (CG) is used to describe either a physical point or a feeling of balance.
CG used in Judo

"the body needs to learn, what the mind already knows"

Is it the same idea — or are they fundamentally different ways of understanding the body’s center?

Jus a smal note - ”Hara” hold a broder meaning of area as -”Belly”, can also mean ”Guts” , dantian would be - tanden

 

[everything]

center of gravity can be outside the body depending on position, similar to how center of gravity of a boomerang is between its arms and "outside" its body.

for anatomical location and organs regardless of the shifting center of gravity, inside the body where the dantian is said to be located are the .... small intestines, which are breaking down food and absorbing nutrients (energy), so in that sense this location for "energy center" would seem to make sense from a holistic point of view.

but when we digest food or control our center doing something like riding a bicycle, this "energy" and this muscle and cg control are all automatic and seems like only a small part of the energy and physical center they talk about in tai chi.