Dan rank in another system - your input...

[A.R.K.]

Here is a question for your consideration...

An individual has earned Dan rank in one or more systems. The individual comes in contact with the founder/Head Grandmaster etc of a style or system that differs from the ones he/she has attained Dan rank. The Grandmaster of the differing style/system decides to honor this individual with Dan rank in his [the GM] style/system due to factors such as reputation, achievments, teaching ability, contributions to the Arts etc.

In your opinion, can a Grandmaster do this? Does he have that authority concerning who he considers worthy to issue Dan rank in his style/system. Is the Dan rank legitimate?

I look forward to opinions from everyone. I'll check back in a day or so. Thanks for your considered input.

Stay safe.

 

[Aegis]

A Grandmaster (by which I assume you mean the head of a system) answers to no-one within his system, so he can do whatever he likes when it comes to awarding ranks. However, if he awards a Dan grade in his system to someone who has never trained in it, he cheapens the whole grading structure.

Honorary grades are different, but these days it seems to be fairly commonplace for honorary grades to be mistaken for real grades, which again causes problems.

I suppose the simple answer would be to award Dan grades only to those who have actually trained in the system, to people you would be proud to have as students. After all, if I graded someone to a rank in Judo (which I can't do anyway, not being a coach and all ) when all they've trained in is karate, then their rank would not be indicitive of their ability in judo. It makes no sense to do that.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei

In your opinion, can a Grandmaster do this? Does he have that authority concerning who he considers worthy to issue Dan rank in his style/system. Is the Dan rank legitimate?

If the person didn't study the style and therefore doesn’t know it he shouldn’t be ranked in it.

Also, if a person doesn’t do whatever style you do he shouldn’t be giving you rank in your own art.

There is a “dipstick” here in Tokyo that is a Judoka by the name of Saito or Sato that runs the Kokusai Budoin (International Martial Arts Federation). I met him at a demo they gave here. The group has members from all kinds of arts karate, kenjutsu, judo, jujutsu etc…
When I met Saito/Sato he asked if I might like to demonstrate karate at one of his little shindigs. I told him maybe but it depends on my schedule.
Saito/Sato added to his invitation that I would first have to be graded in their Kokusai Budoin. (i.e cough up some cash)
I asked him who would be grading me and he said he would.
I then asked him what he knew about karate since he was a Judoka……….he said he could tell what grade I was because he knew martial spirit when he saw it.
At that I asked him which was the proper way to do a certain technique……..of course he was clueless. So I told him he had no business offering me dan ranks in an art he knew nothing about and he could take his dan factory and go fxxk himself. Which is the same response I give to all dan factories……especially ones offering me rank.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Aegis
Honorary grades are different, but these days it seems to be fairly commonplace for honorary grades to be mistaken for real grades, which again causes problems.

I agree.
Honorary grades are just that “Honorary” and should state so, and shouldn't be confused with real grades.

 

[DAC..florida]

I AGREE THAT A GRANDMASTER OR FOUNDER OF A STYLE CAN PRETTY MUCH DO WHAT THEY WANT WITHIN THIER OWN STYLE, WHO COULD TELL THEM THEY CANT!!!!
ON THE SAME NOTE I ALSO AGREE THAT IT WOULD BE AN HONOR AND VERY RESPECTFUL TO DO THIS BUT IF IT WERE ME, I WOULD SPECIFY THAT IT WAS AN HONORARY TITLE TO AVOID ANY QUESTIONS THAT MAY COME UP IN THE FUTURE ABOUT THIS PERSON NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THAT STYLE. THE GRANDMASTER SHOULD ALSO BE AWARE OF PAPER CHAMPIONS AND MAKE SURE THIS PERSON KNOWS THIER SH#T.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I AGREE THAT A GRANDMASTER OR FOUNDER OF A STYLE CAN PRETTY MUCH DO WHAT THEY WANT WITHIN THIER OWN STYLE, WHO COULD TELL THEM THEY CANT!!!!
ON THE SAME NOTE I ALSO AGREE THAT IT WOULD BE AN HONOR AND VERY RESPECTFUL TO DO THIS BUT IF IT WERE ME, I WOULD SPECIFY THAT IT WAS AN HONORARY TITLE TO AVOID ANY QUESTIONS THAT MAY COME UP IN THE FUTURE ABOUT THIS PERSON NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THAT STYLE. THE GRANDMASTER SHOULD ALSO BE AWARE OF PAPER CHAMPIONS AND MAKE SURE THIS PERSON KNOWS THIER SH#T.

Ya know on the Internet all caps means you are yelling........just a thought.:shrug:

 

[Hollywood1340]

I've been told General Choi's first TKD ranking was an HONORARY fourth dan, later taken back.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340
I've been told General Choi's first TKD ranking was an HONORARY fourth dan, later taken back.

I have never heard that. Maybe you should take that up in the TKD/Korean arts section. They might know more about it.

 

[Mike Clarke]

After ten years training in Japanese Shoto-ryu [Tani-ha], I went to Okinawa to begin training in Goju-ryu. In Shito-ryu I had reached nidan [2nd dan] level, however, I trained in Goju-ryu for three years before being tested, and then I was awarded shodan [1st dan]. Did this mean that my Shito-ryu grade was of no value, or of less value than a grade in Goju-ryu? I don't think so.
When I came to Goju-ryu I was not a beginner in karate, but I was in Goju-ryu, so I had to just train and try to learn and aquire some understanding. Once I had, and that became clear to my sensei, he tested me for the first level of proficency. I'm glad to say I passed.
Having some ability in one system will no doubt help you [?] if you change systems, but that's not the same as 'understanding' the system you are new to.
Mike.

 

[chufeng]

Hollywood wrote:

I've been told General Choi's first TKD ranking was an HONORARY fourth dan, later taken back.

General Choi founded TKD...how could anyone award him honorary rank in it? He was, in fact, a NiDan in Shotokan Karate prior to founding TKD...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Cthulhu]

If your style and this hypothetical grandmaster's style were similar, maybe. I stress maybe. By similar, I mean the same kata are trained, and the same fundamentals.

However, if your studying, say, Wing Chun, and some GM from a karate system wants to give you dan ranking, why take it? You can't teach the system. You don't know the forms, or at least, don't know them well. Your fundamental techniques will be vastly different. The only reason to accept it would be to inflate your background.

And that's just wrong.

Cthulhu

 

[Hollywood1340]

Originally posted by chufeng
Hollywood wrote:

General Choi founded TKD...how could anyone award him honorary rank in it? He was, in fact, a NiDan in Shotokan Karate prior to founding TKD...

:asian:
chufeng

The founding of TKD was a group effort, and history has shown that the General took to much of the credit.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340
The founding of TKD was a group effort, and history has shown that the General took to much of the credit.

Never heard that before.
Can you direct us to any info (website/book) on what you are talking about?

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

However, if your studying, say, Wing Chun, and some GM from a karate system wants to give you dan ranking, why take it? You can't teach the system. You don't know the forms, or at least, don't know them well. Your fundamental techniques will be vastly different. The only reason to accept it would be to inflate your background.

And that's just wrong.

Cthulhu

ok- i'm all against one style promoting another without any background or standing in the other style... BUT if you're giving a rank recognition cause you are simply giving your own thumbs up to the instructor- i don't see that as wrong in and of itself.

If you hang up some honorary certificate and the wording lets you know that it's honorary-- then i can see it being not big deal to display your acceptance by other martial artists. As long as you stay honest about it -if not, probably tells us a lot about the guy who handed it out in the first place as well as the guy who recevied it.

I mean they hand out honorary PH'ds-- and those folks can freely put them up in their offices-- it just goes without saying that you don't go around trying to teach at a university with it or misrepresent its intent to others.

peace
:asian:

Jaz K.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Some styles over lap………..a bit anyway.
I teach one of Kise Fuse’s 3rd dans and although we do the same kata they aren’t always done the same way between us, they are similar and he and I can be on the “same page” sometimes but at times it seems we are reading from two different books about the same kata.
Kise was kohai (Jr. student) to my teacher, Mr. Oyata, in Nakamura Shigeru’s Okinawa Kenpo dojo back in the 50’~60’s.
However, Kise’s version of the Naihanchis, Pinanas, and Kusanku katas are a bit different than the ones we learn.
This could be because he has modified them or is doing the Matsumura Shorin ryu version or any number of reasons.
He also teaches different bunkai to go with them.
I couldn’t in my right mind expect to go to Kise’s dojo and get “ranked” without actually training with him and knowing the in & outs of what he teaches.
I could probably to pass myself off as one of his students by doing some of the kata the way his dojo does them, but that is not what gets you “ranked”.
Anyone can do “monkey see monkey do” karate, that’s not hard.
It’s the techniques, the performance there of and the understanding of them that is the foundation for the rank.

 

[Marginal]

Arnold Schwarzenegger was awarded a rank in TKD a couple of years ago. Arnold himself professes no understanding of or inclination to study a MA.

I would not want to or be able to learn TKD from Arnold even if he had a 7th dan BB or whatever.

 

[A.R.K.]

Some of the discussion here brings up a good question...

What constitutes a legitimate Dan rank? Speaking about an individual in his/her own system of choice, who is the authority, or by what authority does he/she receive Dan rank?

Look forward to the input....

 

[James Kovacich]

I was trained here in the SF Bay Area in a system. My Sifu was trained by his father who was a student of the founder.

My Sifu does not certify and I no longer train with my Sifu so I went outside to another source to certify.

A fellow student of my Sifus father went on to found his own system based on the original system. He taught a student who went on to found his own system based on the system that he was taught. Now this man promoted me in his system and given me permission to teach his system which is based on the same system that I was trained in.

Note: we came down with the same lineage very closely. And we both learned the same original systems that are instructors had learned. He promoted me to full instructor in that system as well based on what I had been trained in and the fact that I had video taped my Sifu teaching me for over 2 years in that system and that I have expanded on that for several more years since we made the original tapes.

 

[Matt Stone]

Teacher A teaches Yiliquan. Teacher B teaches Ryu Te Karate. Student X wants to learn both.

Student X puts in years of training in Yiliquan. He is ranked at a particular "dan" rank. He begins to study with Teacher B.

Because Yiliquan and Ryu Te Karate both punch and kick, both practice forms, both have joint locks and concealed techniques within their forms, should Student X expect Teacher B to recognize his rank under Teacher A and grant him similar rank in Ryu Te Karate (even though Student X just started studying)?

Not just no, but hell no.

There are similarities between nearly ever art if you look closely enough. There are more similarities between some arts, far fewer between others. But no matter how closely they may resemble each other, that does not mean that they are similar enough for a person to allege to have advanced "certification" in that style without having sufficient training in that style to warrant "certification" anyway!

:angry:

I can't believe this is actually an issue.

If I go to school to learn to fly a Cessna, and I am a certified pilot of a Cessna, then that is all I am certified, by training, to fly.

Can I then go to an aviation school and say "I know how to fly a Cessna, so please certify me on flying 767 Jumbo Jets, because they are both planes and are so similar in the method of their piloting."

How about having a podiatrist perform surgery in place of a neurosurgeon... They are both doctors, after all, and they both study the same human body, and since everything is the same there shouldn't be a difference, right?

How about since I have a college degree in X, why can't I get another one in Y, even though I didn't take any of the required classes, but a degree is a degree, after all, and college educations are all so similar that they amount to the same thing in the end anyway...

We need a smilie to represent "bullsh*t," so I could include it here. :angry:

The premise of ranking in styles other than the one you have studied is assinine. It fails the logic test straight out of the gate. If a "grandmaster" (whatever the hell that means) bestows rank upon someone who has never, not a single solitary day, trained under him (or another instructor) in that style, then regardless of what Heavenly rank he may or may not have, he has absolutely no business whatsoever "promoting" said individual to any grade, basic nor advanced.

Sorry to get all heated about this, but it just amazes me how someone can manage to follow the train of thought on this and not reach the same conclusions.

akja -

I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you, but you provided an example that fails the logic test as well...

I was trained here in the SF Bay Area in a system. My Sifu was trained by his father who was a student of the founder.

My Sifu does not certify and I no longer train with my Sifu so I went outside to another source to certify.

A fellow student of my Sifus father went on to found his own system based on the original system. He taught a student who went on to found his own system based on the system that he was taught. Now this man promoted me in his system and given me permission to teach his system which is based on the same system that I was trained in.

Note: we came down with the same lineage very closely. And we both learned the same original systems that are instructors had learned. He promoted me to full instructor in that system as well based on what I had been trained in and the fact that I had video taped my Sifu teaching me for over 2 years in that system and that I have expanded on that for several more years since we made the original tapes.

You studied Style 1.6, your sifu studied 1.5, your sifu's dad 1.4. A student of your sifu's dad created his own style based on version 1.4, taught that to someone else who learned 1.4 beta. So you are now ranked in 1.4 beta but have never formally studied it long enough to warrant that grade anyway? You received ranking because you have a similar lineage traced back to the same person? So if you are an instructor in 1.4 beta, and you learned 1.6, but now you teach 1.7, what are you actually "certified" to teach? It just doesn't make any sense...

Feel free to continue on at will... I am still reeling from the fact that this is a question that needs to be asked.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I can't believe this is actually an issue.

I can.
Getting the approval of others for credentials and ranks is ALWAYS an issue with fakes and wannabees.

This “game” of getting recognition by others outside your own training realm has really taken off since the Internet started. Not only has the dan factory business taken off so have the mutual rank approval socities. Both are a joke and so are the people that participate in them.

Then they can say “well master so and so recognizes me so I am legit”.
I guess it has some sort of fairy godmother magic and once they are “blessed” they aguire all the skills and knowledge needed.
:rofl: