Dan rank in another system - your input...

[chufeng]

Un-friggin-believable!!!

It's like: "I have seven brown belts...that should add up to something like 5th dan, right?"

NO...It adds up to seven friggin brown belts...in other words, "I almost got far enough to really learn something, but then changed systems (for whatever reasons)...so now I should be recognized for all of my work in those other systems, even though I never qualified for dan rank in any of them..."

Give me a break...this has nothing to do with traditionalism...it is quite simply a rip-off of those who would train in such a system.

In an old Okinawan system...not only did they not MMA...they oftentimes focused on one or two or three (at the most) forms...
THAT took them an entire lifetime to digest and understand...HOW can anyone learn anything except the superficial stuff with the approach proposed by AKJA (and others)?

If you go to the well of knowledge, drink deeply...or don't drink at all.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[A.R.K.]

Very interesting the things people lose control over. Makes me wonder about how they would deal with a real issue that comes up in their lives....

I ask again, what constitutes a 'real' Dan rank and who has the authority to issue such rank?

 

[sweeper]

well if by grandmaster you mean a head of a system than I guess yeah he could give an outsider dan ranking in that system, but by doing so he in effect lowers the level of skill required to be that rank to whatever level of skill this special case has. In other words if stylist of style X has zero knowledge of style Y yet Grandmaster of Y gives Stylist of X a given rank in Y that rank (and presumably all below it if rank is linear) now requires zero skill. So basicly giving rank without merit invalidates any ranking given in that system. But I still think it can be done.. just would be stupid.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Very interesting the things people lose control over. Makes me wonder about how they would deal with a real issue that comes up in their lives....

I ask again, what constitutes a 'real' Dan rank and who has the authority to issue such rank?

Mr. Shultz -

It is very interesting that the bulk of the responses to your question have indicated a complete lack of respect for those who would assume that Teacher A of System P can "promote" Student X from System Q to any rank unless Student X studied Teacher A's system...

It is also interesting how you condescend to their (and my) aggravation that such an idea really needs any kind of debate to determine whether such an act is feasible or reasonable.

Perhaps you could enlighten us with your idea of what constitutes real "dan" ranking, and who has the authority to issue such rank...

I think you need to define what "real" means. I know of two schools from my hometown where a black belt means they are almost ready to be close to being equal to Yiliquan novices with less than 6 months of training. I know of another school where their 1st kyu students flatly frighten me and I'm glad their school and ours are friends...

What is "real" black belt material? Depends on the school. I'd be happy to share with anyone interested what the examination requirements are for Yiliquan Senior students... I think many people will balk at the volume of information that is required. Is that the same amount required everywhere? No. Should it be? It depends on who you ask. "Real" black belt material is about more than technique, however. There is insight, experience, humility, confidence, and a whole host of other characteristics that simply are not developed in a year or two of mini-mall dojo training, nor of "recognition" by someone that hasn't spent years watching over your training.

Who has the authority to issue a black belt? Any teacher who is authorized to promote people of their system to such a grade. But not someone who is not part of the system you study.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Disco]

Yiliquan 1. Please forgive my ignorance. I am not familiar with your particular style. But that's nothing new, I'm not familiar with a lot of things (Married with children so I'm legally brain dead). Is there information I can access?

Thank You........

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Disco
Yiliquan 1. Please forgive my ignorance. I am not familiar with your particular style. But that's nothing new, I'm not familiar with a lot of things (Married with children so I'm legally brain dead). Is there information I can access?

Thank You........

Thats an entirely different subject. I opened one up that you
can contribute in, here.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Teacher A teaches Yiliquan. Teacher B teaches Ryu Te Karate. Student X wants to learn both.

Student X puts in years of training in Yiliquan. He is ranked at a particular "dan" rank. He begins to study with Teacher B.

Because Yiliquan and Ryu Te Karate both punch and kick, both practice forms, both have joint locks and concealed techniques within their forms, should Student X expect Teacher B to recognize his rank under Teacher A and grant him similar rank in Ryu Te Karate (even though Student X just started studying)?

Not just no, but hell no.

There are similarities between nearly ever art if you look closely enough. There are more similarities between some arts, far fewer between others. But no matter how closely they may resemble each other, that does not mean that they are similar enough for a person to allege to have advanced "certification" in that style without having sufficient training in that style to warrant "certification" anyway!

:angry:

I can't believe this is actually an issue.

If I go to school to learn to fly a Cessna, and I am a certified pilot of a Cessna, then that is all I am certified, by training, to fly.

Can I then go to an aviation school and say "I know how to fly a Cessna, so please certify me on flying 767 Jumbo Jets, because they are both planes and are so similar in the method of their piloting."

How about having a podiatrist perform surgery in place of a neurosurgeon... They are both doctors, after all, and they both study the same human body, and since everything is the same there shouldn't be a difference, right?

How about since I have a college degree in X, why can't I get another one in Y, even though I didn't take any of the required classes, but a degree is a degree, after all, and college educations are all so similar that they amount to the same thing in the end anyway...

We need a smilie to represent "bullsh*t," so I could include it here. :angry:

The premise of ranking in styles other than the one you have studied is assinine. It fails the logic test straight out of the gate. If a "grandmaster" (whatever the hell that means) bestows rank upon someone who has never, not a single solitary day, trained under him (or another instructor) in that style, then regardless of what Heavenly rank he may or may not have, he has absolutely no business whatsoever "promoting" said individual to any grade, basic nor advanced.

Sorry to get all heated about this, but it just amazes me how someone can manage to follow the train of thought on this and not reach the same conclusions.

akja -

I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you, but you provided an example that fails the logic test as well...



You studied Style 1.6, your sifu studied 1.5, your sifu's dad 1.4. A student of your sifu's dad created his own style based on version 1.4, taught that to someone else who learned 1.4 beta. So you are now ranked in 1.4 beta but have never formally studied it long enough to warrant that grade anyway? You received ranking because you have a similar lineage traced back to the same person? So if you are an instructor in 1.4 beta, and you learned 1.6, but now you teach 1.7, what are you actually "certified" to teach? It just doesn't make any sense...

Feel free to continue on at will... I am still reeling from the fact that this is a question that needs to be asked.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

You don't seem to understand what I've done and where I've been since I wore those brown belts and you are wearing my patients thin. You guys knickpicked me to death so I adjusted my site, please don't get mad again.

You just don't understand JKD. Either you have it or you don't. Don't take it personal but your to caught up on the traditionalism which has nothing to do with the Oakland JKD school. You guys have knickpicked like you really know me or something.

DO ANY OF YOU KNICKPICKERS HAPPEN TO LIVE IN CALIFORINA?
I'D LIKE TO SEE WHAT MAKES YOU RANK BETTER THAN MINE!
MY EMAIL IS IN MY PROFILE!
I'm not trying to start anything here. You haven't listened to anything I've said. You only see through the eyes of TMA which just isn't the case here.

Your probably very well versed in your art but JKD is like BJJ in the sense that you can go to other schools. The JKD world is universal.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
You don't seem to understand what I've done and where I've been since I wore those brown belts and you are wearing my patients thin. You guys knickpicked me to death so I adjusted my site, please don't get mad again.

You just don't understand JKD. Either you have it or you don't. Don't take it personal but your to caught up on the traditionalism which has nothing to do with the Oakland JKD school. You guys have knickpicked like you really know me or something.

Unlike yourself that has called me a “liar” and said my training was “typical American karate” and then added that it was “WEAK”.

Originally posted by akja
DO ANY OF YOU KNICKPICKERS HAPPEN TO LIVE IN CALIFORINA?
I'D LIKE TO SEE WHAT MAKES YOU RANK BETTER THAN MINE!
MY EMAIL IS IN MY PROFILE!

UH OH here it is the BIG INTERNET CHALLENGE…….

Originally posted by akja
I'm not trying to start anything here.

Sure you are. You just threw out a challenge over the Internet.

 

[James Kovacich]

I really would like to meet you 3 stooges:
chufeng, RyuShiKan, Yiliquan1

IF YOUR ART IS AS BAD AS YOUR BIG MOUTHS,
I WILL BOW DOWN!!

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
I really would like to meet you 3 stooges:
chufeng, RyuShiKan, Yiliquan1

IF YOUR ART IS AS BAD AS YOUR BIG MOUTHS,
I WILL BOW DOWN!!

And what would you do if you did meet one of us??

Virtual Sensei
How To Spot "Teachers" Worth Avoiding

The VS, by contrast, can't stand to be questioned. Bullies are quick to anger, and martial arts frauds are insecure and easily threatened. When they find themselves cornered they will start swearing and making vulgar threats, often sending e-mail or private messages to their detractors. These messages would make a sailor blush, and often include explicit or implicit threats of bodily harm.

A more subtle VS tactic is to politely invite the critic for a "free lesson" at the VS's school. The implied threat is the same.
Oh? What school are you with? Where do you teach or train? Why don't you post your location so we can seek you out? What are you afraid of? ...If you think I'm not skilled, why don't you stop by my dojo? I'll be happy to give you some free, hands-on instruction.

 

[James Kovacich]

Just turn on the camcorder and see whose art is !functional!"

 

[shadowdragon]

I simply think that the GM/founder has the authority to give Dan ranks to someone owning dan rank/ranks in another art, since no one can question his authority, but those dan-ranks are not legitimate if the person in question has no training whatsoever in a particular art.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
I really would like to meet you 3 stooges:
chufeng, RyuShiKan, Yiliquan1

IF YOUR ART IS AS BAD AS YOUR BIG MOUTHS,
I WILL BOW DOWN!!

You are welcome to train with us any time you find yourself in the Pacific NW. Let me know when you will be up here, and I will put you up myself...

I wanna be Curly Joe, though... He has a way with the ladies...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

I let loose a little to easily, accept my opology for my ignorance but I've been on the defensive end for a few days now. I will be up there in the future and maybe we could workout. thats what i plan on doing for the rest of my life is travel and train around the world.

 

[A.R.K.]

Yiliquan1,

It is also interesting how you condescend to their (and my) aggravation that such an idea really needs any kind of debate to determine whether such an act is feasible or reasonable.

Why would it aggrivate you? The purpose of this board has been the exchange of information/ideas amoung varied individuals. I think it folly to assume that everyone thinks the same way, thus it is interesting to put forth questions and learn from intelligent responses.

It is also a character test of sorts. Being new to this particular site I want to get the feel of the thoughts and ideas of 'regulars'. Never know when you might pick up some new information or a twist that you had not considered before.

Perhaps you could enlighten us with your idea of what constitutes real "dan" ranking, and who has the authority to issue such rank...

I would be happy to give my thoughts as to this. Basically 'belts' are, if I'm not mistaken, a Judo invention of sorts. The idea spread from there and seems to be quite popular around the world. We still have sashes and the like, but belts have taken off quite a bit. A belt is basically a measure of skill, at least ideally. Since most martial arts systems did not start off with them they have been 'borrowed'.

You mentioned somewhere recently your Dan rank I believe, and I apologies that I do not remember it. But it is a measure of your skill in the eyes of your instructors. I'm sure it is also a measure of your character, commitment and contrubutions to your style. Boiled down, is that not the bottom line? A student's overall ability in the eyes of their instructor?

The words 'real' or 'legitimate' could be considered subjective terms with no real meaning when applied to 'rank' be it belt, sash or other. Who granted you your present rank? Answer is more than likely your instructor. Who gave him/her that right? Answer, their instructor. So on and so forth all the way back in the lineage to either the beginning of the present rank structure of the system founder. In either case, who gave them rank or the authority to issue rank in the style they created? Nobody did because they were the first one so to speak with no 'head'. Or, someone from another system 'allowed' them to start their own off-shoot and recognized them as the head...but of a different style than their own.

Do you see the point? In general terms you have your rank ultimately from someone who did not have rank, they 'ivented' it so to speak for themselves for the purposes of testing others skill. OR, you have your present rank ultimately from someone who had no rank but was given permission and recognized from someone outside your present style to do so. So at some point along the line your 'founder' either was granted rank from another GM or 'founder' or he gave the rank to himself.

Does this invalidate your rank? Or mine? Or everyone here? Well, ultimately from a purely technical perspective the arguement could be made that yes we don't have 'real' rank because nobody else did up the pyramid. Because that same GM that granted someone else permission and recognition himself is in the same boat.

But I don't think there will be an enmass voluntary turn in of belts any time soon,do you? Of course not. Rank may have been 'earned' along the line but it was created out of thin air at the top.

But since 'rank' is now the accepted norm I would suggest that if a GM/founder/whatever wishes to grant rank to another in his particular discipline he is not doing anything that was not done at some point originally by those that came before him. I would clarify that if it is done purely for $ gain and not based on more noble qualities then it is wrong. However, if that system head deems someone truly worthy because of reputation, qualifications, contributions etc then it is entirely up to them and completely within their 'authority' to do so.

Ryushikan,

I'm beginning to wonder if you are truly that angry with me or if this is some sort of baptism by fire ritual some newbies go through? Either way. You continually are interested in my qualifications, history etc al. I am curious about this, and you. Up until today I was simply going to ignore you as just antagonistic, but I am curious if there is more than meets the eye?

One of the reasons I have not given you my lineage is because on a different thread, to a different poster you trashed his lineage. I don't know if you are/were correct in your assestment or not, and it's none of my business. But by and large you seem prepared and determined to respond negatively to quite a bit. First, if his lineage was questionable, why say so? Truth be told, we ALL have questionable lineage in one way or another, you, me, everyone here. There are skeletons in all of our 'lineage' closets. And just based on the short time I've been exposed to you, you'll try to find something to bash or go with the 'never heard of em'. I could be wrong, but I base this on my evaluation of you so far. I have confidence in those that have taught me and evaluated me. My background has been scrutinized extensively by those who have more years than you and I put together. By those that have impecable reputations in the MA community. They were satisfied enough to put their very names on the line to vouch for my background, my 'lineage'. That is enough for me. If this is not enough for you then thats a shame.

Either way, I would love to fellowship with you if you are willing to put aside the antagonism. Perhaps we could even learn from one another. The ball is in your court. Either way, as I have said to Yiliquan1 I wish you a long, happy, healthy life with much joy.

Peace

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
One of the reasons I have not given you my lineage is because on a different thread, to a different poster you trashed his lineage.

If you are as legit as you claim then you have nothing to worry about.

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Truth be told, we ALL have questionable lineage in one way or another, you, me, everyone here.

No, that’s not true.
Many people on this board can prove the rank they claim and have been forth coming about.
You on the other hand have skirted the issue every since it was mentioned.
Basically all you have done is comment on the chip on my shoulder and the way I post.
It would seem this some sort of tactic to discredit me so you won’t have to post the information I and several others have asked for.
Never the less, if you have the rank who did you get it from?
If there are teachers in Okinawa teach Shuri Te Ryu who are they?
If you were granted a Soke title in Kobe who gave it to you?
Simple questions that have simple answers.
Usually people that claim certain ranks and titles have no qualms about teling you from who and where they got ranked.
I know I don’t

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
And just based on the short time I've been exposed to you, you'll try to find something to bash or go with the 'never heard of em'.

Hell, I have already done that so what do you have to lose.
If you are as legit as you say nobody will question you.

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
I have confidence in those that have taught me and evaluated me. My background has been scrutinized extensively by those who have more years than you and I put together. By those that have impecable reputations in the MA community. They were satisfied enough to put their very names on the line to vouch for my background, my 'lineage'. That is enough for me. If this is not enough for you then thats a shame.

Again, more excuses.

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Either way, I would love to fellowship with you if you are willing to put aside the antagonism. Perhaps we could even learn from one another. The ball is in your court.
Either way, as I have said to Yiliquan1 I wish you a long, happy, healthy life with much joy. Peace

Nope the ball is in your court and has been for the last couple of days waiting for you to post the info you have been claiming.
You want to be “pals” with me fine. But I like to know who my “pals” are. As a show of good faith post the answers to the questions I and others have asked of you.
Bottom line, you want people to be friendly towards you, respect you, or be "pals" with you then you can't be deceptive like you are now.

I , Yiliquan1, Chufeng & others are “pals”.
I had never heard of the art they do until I met Yiliquan1. When I asked him who his teacher was he didn’t hesitate or give excuses or get paranoid. He answered it like most people with nothing to hide would. Come to find out his teacher and my teacher actually know each other!

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Either way, I would love to fellowship with you if you are willing to put aside the antagonism. Perhaps we could even learn from one another. The ball is in your court. Either way, as I have said to Yiliquan1 I wish you a long, happy, healthy life with much joy. Peace

This is one thing that gets really old on these boards.
People that start their post off by bashing someone, or calling someone xxxx & xxxx.
And then at the end of their post say stuff like “I hope we can be friends”.

How sincere is that???

 

[A.R.K.]

As I have said, I have nothing that needs to be justified before you. Others have placed their stamp of approval on me so to speak, so if you don't want to be 'buds' because I don't want to continue playing games with you, then that is fine. You have been negative from your first post towards me, and as I'm finding out, quite a few others.

Yes you do have questionable lineage, somewhere up the line there is going to be skeletons. It's admirable of you not to think so, but not very realistic. I have been 'checked out' by people such as GM Jack 'Pappasan' Stern, GM Yuri Kostrov, Dr. Mihal Pupsh and others. The KYHA has ties to not only Korea [Dong Koo Yudo Kwan] but to Japan [Kobe], Saudi and quite a few other countries. My Sokeship is recorded in Kobe with all the honku stamps etc. You live in Japan feel free to check it out. That is why I occasionally use the title in corrospondence and on the site. Right or wrong in your eyes.

There are three Kata's btw in Pangai-noon. It found quite a home in the central temple. And I trained with Brad Barnett in the Military when stationed in Turkey at Incirlik AB. He was and is my superior...my better in this area. I was able to maintain a sporatic relationship with him for sometime afterwards but we have now gone our separate ways. He is a good man.

 

[A.R.K.]

I have never 'bashed/ you Ryu, I have commented on your lack of courtesy. I can let your behavior thus far go to the wayside. Can you start being courteous? And if not, can you follow the instructions of the Admin and contact me with your remarks via email?

Peace and love

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
As I have said, I have nothing that needs to be justified before you. Others have placed their stamp of approval on me so to speak, so if you don't want to be 'buds' because I don't want to continue playing games with you, then that is fine. You have been negative from your first post towards me, and as I'm finding out, quite a few others.

Asking/Answering a legit question is not a game.

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Yes you do have questionable lineage, somewhere up the line there is going to be skeletons. It's admirable of you not to think so, but not very realistic. I have been 'checked out' by people such as GM Jack 'Pappasan' Stern, GM Yuri Kostrov, Dr. Mihal Pupsh and others. The KYHA has ties to not only Korea [Dong Koo Yudo Kwan] but to Japan [Kobe], Saudi and quite a few other countries.

You have no problem throwing these names out but when it comes to things in Japan you won’t. Why is that?

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
My Sokeship is recorded in Kobe with all the honku stamps etc. You live in Japan feel free to check it out. That is why I occasionally use the title in corrospondence and on the site. Right or wrong in your eyes.

How can I when you won’t post any of the names of your teachers/organizations in Japan.

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
There are three Kata's btw in Pangai-noon. It found quite a home in the central temple. And I trained with Brad Barnett in the Military when stationed in Turkey at Incirlik AB. He was and is my superior...my better in this area. I was able to maintain a sporatic relationship with him for sometime afterwards but we have now gone our separate ways. He is a good man.

There are 4 kata in Pangainoon.
Sanchin
Sesan
Sanseryu
Suparinpe

So is Brad Barnett the person who tested you for 8th dan?