Dan Numbers - do they really matter?

Bruce7

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No, our association is a member of the WDSDU. It's based in Korea, but it has members in alot of different countries :)



That's correct, Europe is a continent (just like North America includes the USA and Canada). The EU is the European Union, where each member country has representatives in order to create standards as well as promote peace, freedom, security, justice, etc... Anyway, while there are national (within the UK, which by the way is a union as well) and international (within the EU and world-wide) associations, organisations and union's; the martial arts are basically unregulated as a sport and or activity, it's basically the individual National Governing Bodies (NGBs) "regulates" them - there are however certain laws and acts that we have to follow, eg health & safety act, Child Protection Act 2004, Criminal Justice and immigration Act 2008 (section 76) in relation to self-defence, etc...

I like all the members of the United Kingdom, but you are a little funny.:)
In the U.S. the whole North, South was a thing, but nothing compared to Scots and English.
In 2006 I was in the southern Libyan desert on an oil rig with a bunch of Scot. We were drinking home made brew and listening to the radio.
England was play somebody in soccer, excuse me football. The funny thing was the Scots were laughing when the other team scored on England. They saw my surprise and said they rooted for anyone who played against England.
Yet, you better not say something against the U.K., because they will join ranks with the English against you.
When they got upset about my km joke. I knew Dvcochran step in it without trying when I read his post. :(
 

pdg

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The EU is the European Union, where each member country has representatives in order to create standards as well as promote peace, freedom, security, justice, etc...

Well, that's one way of describing it...
 

kitkatninja

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England was play somebody in soccer, excuse me football. The funny thing was the Scots were laughing when the other team scored on England. They saw my surprise and said they rooted for anyone who played against England....

Haha... Well the UK comprises of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and tbh, it's not just Scotland that laughs when goals are scored against England... To be honest, while it's optimism that keeps England's hopes alive, the realism is that England is terrible at football (soccer). Last time England won the World Cup in Football was 1966 and they continue to try to ride that win (against Germany, even though Germany has won it 4 times). England has never won the UEFA European Championship (the Eurocup) or the FIFA Confederations Cup...
 

dvcochran

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No, our association is a member of the WDSDU. It's based in Korea, but it has members in alot of different countries :)



That's correct, Europe is a continent (just like North America includes the USA and Canada). The EU is the European Union, where each member country has representatives in order to create standards as well as promote peace, freedom, security, justice, etc... Anyway, while there are national (within the UK, which by the way is a union as well) and international (within the EU and world-wide) associations, organisations and union's; the martial arts are basically unregulated as a sport and or activity, it's basically the individual National Governing Bodies (NGBs) "regulates" them - there are however certain laws and acts that we have to follow, eg health & safety act, Child Protection Act 2004, Criminal Justice and immigration Act 2008 (section 76) in relation to self-defence, etc...
The U.S. is much the same. I do not think we have anything like your CJ&IA. Laws and influence may come into play if a person were ever in a courtroom scenario.
 

Buka

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I like all the members of the United Kingdom, but you are a little funny.:)
In the U.S. the whole North, South was a thing, but nothing compared to Scots and English.
In 2006 I was in the southern Libyan desert on an oil rig with a bunch of Scot. We were drinking home made brew and listening to the radio.
England was play somebody in soccer, excuse me football. The funny thing was the Scots were laughing when the other team scored on England. They saw my surprise and said they rooted for anyone who played against England.
Yet, you better not say something against the U.K., because they will join ranks with the English against you.
When they got upset about my km joke. I knew Dvcochran step in it without trying when I read his post. :(

My wife is one half Irish/Scotish and one half Sicilian.

She doesn't even need another person in the room to start an argument.
 

dvcochran

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My wife is one half Irish/Scotish and one half Sicilian.

She doesn't even need another person in the room to start an argument.
Yea, I got one just like that. She is just your typical southern mutt though. Her lineage is Irish & Cherokee. Some days I feel like I don't have a chance.
 

Gerry Seymour

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My wife is one half Irish/Scotish and one half Sicilian.

She doesn't even need another person in the room to start an argument.
My wife is Russian, Ukranian, Polish, and Jewish. She's genetically capable of invading herself.
 

rick_tsdmdk

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On another note,,,

Craig,
Imagine this. Your Dan-Bon is 44922!!!

What would it have been if we lived in a perfect world and all of the Tang Soo Do practitioners would have stayed true to Hwang Kee and never left the Federation?

How many practitioners of Tang Soo Do are there in the world that have reached Dan-Ranking?

What would your number have been if we were truly all together in "ONE" lineage?

I wonder...

Imagine if the Federation had stayed true to their members, they might be the largest organization in the world.
 

isshinryuronin

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This is an outsider's view, not being a Korean style practitioner.

Organizations can be over organized, over regulated, micro managed and authoritative. When there is a split(s), the old order is no longer monolithic and new ones scramble to fill the void and establish their own structure. Chaos is the result, eventually settling to simple confusion. This is a generalized sociologic look at the root of the problem in question.

Organized, industrialized nations are actually more fragile than 3rd world countries. For example, the USA has been put in more upheaval than, say Ecuador, from the Corona virus, and will take longer to bounce back.

Now, finally getting to martial arts with the above in mind: For many practitioners of Korean MA, as well as ALL those of Japanese and Okinawan styles (I am one of those, who began in 1966 just to give you a historical perspective) the current Korean MA organizational chart in incomprehensible - Hwarang Do, Mudukwon, Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Kukkiwon, all the multiple Federations - ITF, WTF, ATF and I'm sure there're other various entities (I know I'm mixing apples and oranges a little) - now throw in multiple Dan number series, I feel your pain. I'm confused, even after explanations by my TKD 5th degree friend.

But MA is not a numerical based entity requiring spreadsheets to decipher - it is an art and its practitioners should not be concerned with numbers. Seniority counts for something, skill level definitely counts. Certificate numbers? Maybe not so much. Is it a preoccupation with order and organizational detail, posturing, ego? How important is having a number of 23456 or 23465?

The Samurai warriors did not concern themselves with money; they left such mundane matters to their wives (no offense, ladies.) They concentrated on their art. If we concentrate on that and share our knowledge with those wanting to learn, concerning ourselves with the ideals the MA profess, numbers pale in comparison.
 

dvcochran

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This is an outsider's view, not being a Korean style practitioner.

Organizations can be over organized, over regulated, micro managed and authoritative. When there is a split(s), the old order is no longer monolithic and new ones scramble to fill the void and establish their own structure. Chaos is the result, eventually settling to simple confusion. This is a generalized sociologic look at the root of the problem in question.

Organized, industrialized nations are actually more fragile than 3rd world countries. For example, the USA has been put in more upheaval than, say Ecuador, from the Corona virus, and will take longer to bounce back.

Now, finally getting to martial arts with the above in mind: For many practitioners of Korean MA, as well as ALL those of Japanese and Okinawan styles (I am one of those, who began in 1966 just to give you a historical perspective) the current Korean MA organizational chart in incomprehensible - Hwarang Do, Mudukwon, Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Kukkiwon, all the multiple Federations - ITF, WTF, ATF and I'm sure there're other various entities (I know I'm mixing apples and oranges a little) - now throw in multiple Dan number series, I feel your pain. I'm confused, even after explanations by my TKD 5th degree friend.

But MA is not a numerical based entity requiring spreadsheets to decipher - it is an art and its practitioners should not be concerned with numbers. Seniority counts for something, skill level definitely counts. Certificate numbers? Maybe not so much. Is it a preoccupation with order and organizational detail, posturing, ego? How important is having a number of 23456 or 23465?

The Samurai warriors did not concern themselves with money; they left such mundane matters to their wives (no offense, ladies.) They concentrated on their art. If we concentrate on that and share our knowledge with those wanting to learn, concerning ourselves with the ideals the MA profess, numbers pale in comparison.
Great post.
To be fair, the person practicing a certain KMA or JMA/Okinawan style is only focused on the one system. They are not concerned with any variants. I would think there are many more JMA styles but you seldom hear of the overlap that you infer.
As you said, purity of training is paramount for finding enjoyment with longevity.
 

isshinryuronin

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Great post.
To be fair, the person practicing a certain KMA or JMA/Okinawan style is only focused on the one system. They are not concerned with any variants. I would think there are many more JMA styles but you seldom hear of the overlap that you infer.
As you said, purity of training is paramount for finding enjoyment with longevity.

To be sure, there are various Japanese & Okinawan styles, and even variants within those (which is an irritation to me as I started long ago, before my style diverged into splinter groups.) But my style was not strongly organized, so as my previous post suggested, splitting into factions was not as chaotic as a more organized entity splitting up.

For us, it's not a numbering or even an administrative authority issue, but minor (but still irritating to me) differences in form execution. It's a matter of tomato vs tomahto. The bigger issue for me is the difference in Dan skill levels from branch to branch and school to school. I'll end with two quotes: "Live and let live," and "To thine own self be true."
 

dvcochran

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To be sure, there are various Japanese & Okinawan styles, and even variants within those (which is an irritation to me as I started long ago, before my style diverged into splinter groups.) But my style was not strongly organized, so as my previous post suggested, splitting into factions was not as chaotic as a more organized entity splitting up.

For us, it's not a numbering or even an administrative authority issue, but minor (but still irritating to me) differences in form execution. It's a matter of tomato vs tomahto. The bigger issue for me is the difference in Dan skill levels from branch to branch and school to school. I'll end with two quotes: "Live and let live," and "To thine own self be true."
Understood but I dont know how/if that will ever improve. Take two people who came up in the same system/school who both opened their own dojo. Inherently, they are going to teach quite differently, even if the material is kept the same. This will imprint on the students and so on and so forth.
This is on of the greatest challenges when assessing someone who you do not see on a regular basis. Are they doing it wrong or just with a slightly different flavor?
 
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