"Creating" your "own" art?

Rich Parsons

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Bester said:
Why do people feel the need to "create" their own art?

Well, there is this myth I have talked with some of my friends about, and others have put it better than I, so please excuse me.

Fact) People join martial arts for self defense because they were threatened or beaten.

Fact) People join martial arts for physical fitness.

Fact) I recognize that there are other reasons, but the first two are the majority.

Note: Facts based upon personal research and what I have read, nothing to quote for this post.

Hypothesis) Now most people stay for other reasons.

1) They stay because they enjoy the beauty of the art, the work out, or teaching others, and could care less about power and authority.

2) They stay because they find something that gives them a feeling of belonging, (* almost cultish *).

3) They find something that they want, they want to be the MAN in charge.

The Myth includes item number 3 of my hypothesis. People think that after a while they will gain rank and then more people will be respectful to them since they owe it to them. They seek out this rank, to give them power or authority of others.

In the past opening your own club was being the MAN and they were in charge, and could run things they want to run it. They still had to pay attention and respect to their superiors or higher ranks or . . . , .

So, now just opening your own club in the art you practice, people want to be the top dog. Now some do it actually for what they beleive to be valid reasons. They believe they are doing it because they are upset by the existing politics, and want to change things, and cannot from with in so they start their own.

Some have been forced out, such being the top guy, but given to politics was not chosen to be the heir, or the new family members does not appreciate or like those who are more skilled them the heir. He forces them out, or they decide it is better to leave. This is how you get the different schools that have come down over time in some of the existing arts.

Yet, in the West, in particular the Super Size me USA, people cannot wait to be the top person or to put the work into it to be the top person, to inherit a system for themselves. For you see there can only be one or a small number who run the organization or art. So, in this I can do it myself country and I can create it myself, people go out and create new arts to be able to make themselves the founder or leader of the new organization or art.

So, why do people do it, some for reasons they think are moral and just, some becuase they feel just and want to continue in a better light, yet most, are just after being the to cheese, and having everyone pay them the respect, and they can go out tell people how it will be.


Now, do I think there is a solution? No I do not, for as long as there are more than one person on this planet there will be some form of conflict. As long as there are different opinions there will politics amongst people and organizations. As long as there as people who need to be loved, or respected, or admired, then there will these new arts.

With today's technology, and the internet in particular, but with newspapers and radio and TV as well, you can reach a larger group of people then in days gone by, With the internet, people in London Ontario can ask a question while someone in London England can reply, while a follow question, is ask from somewhere in Iowa, and someone in Japan and answer.

As the globe gets smaller and travel and communication gets better, there will be more people only becuase of the sheer numbers available. This is not going to stop people from making claims, nor making lies.

Just like here in the USA, when I do not like the existing government, I work to change it from within even if I have to wait for the next election. I fight my fight the best I can with in the system.

I believe that frauds will expose themselves over time. Unfortunately some will take longer than others, and some will get hurt in the process. I do not like that, but I do not know how to do it otherwise and still keep the friendly atmosphere of martial talk, versus the gang assault on bullshido.

Like I said before I am always open to improvement, and do not claim to know the answers.

Bester said:
Shame on them. Shame on them all.

Yes :asian:
 

Don Roley

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Ok,
Let me cause some trouble by sorta playing Devil's advocate. This may surprise a lot since it is well known that I have a bad attitude toward people that deicide they can be heads of their own art when I train with people who show up every week for class with their teacher longer than many American sokes are alive.

So I am going to put a bullseye on my chest and enjoy the shots people take at me. I am big enough to not care.

Here is my problem and the reasons I almost decided to create my own style after moving back to the states.

I do Bujinkan and anything else I can try here in Japan. It is my art. When I move it is with Bujinkan habits- or at least I try to do so.

I also have an interest in other arts, but mainly guns and knives. I actually travel back to America from time to time to train under people who have used those items in real combat. That type of experience is a little rare in Japan.

Now, there are many, many good moves that I have had to drop from my training because they did not quite fit with my operating system. There was nothing wrong with them, they just started off with slightly different strategies and taken as a whole they were slightly off from what I try to do. I do not want to do too much and stretch myself too thin. If a move clashes even a little with my Bujinkan training, I drop it or modify it.

Now what I have left and train in is something I think is in line with what I have trained in the Bujinkan. But I am not perfect and make mistakes. The Bujinkan is headed by someone else and for me to add or modify things and put it out under his name just seems wrong to me.

So the answer seems to be to start my own style. Then when people say that what they see me do is not Bujinkan, I can respond that is is not Bujinkan but another style. If I do not use the Bujinkan name then my failures can't be laid at the Bujinkan's feet.

But at the same time, if I am the head of an art, who do I go to in order to improve myself. I am not talking about the occasional seminar. Real improvement seems to come from having a teacher that knows you and your weaknesses and rubs your noses in it until you get rid of them. Sometimes these weak points are things that you are not even aware of. They are blind spots. And blind spots are not just things you can't see, but things you don't know you can't see. And if I am the head of my own art, who do I go to to get that type of relationship in order to improve myself?

Also, Kelly McMann first pointed this out but I have seen multiple examples of it with my own eyes. Once someone creates something and gives it a name associated with them, they then tend to put a lot of energy into defending that item. They have a lot of "face" involved in it since it comes from them. When presented with the hard facts that something with thier name on it is flawed somehow, they do not react like a student and ditch the flawed technique for a superior one. They cling to and defend the one that is "their's" to the death.

I have seen that happed time and time again. People get so involved with the fact that they have created their art that they stop growing. They care so much about the opinions of others who view them as a master that they can't drop all that they have and take a new path no matter how much proof you show that the old path is flawed. Oh, and I am not so foolish to think that I can't fall into that trap.

My answer, right now, is to just have a training group with no names. If I open up a dojo in a mini-mall in Pundunk the sign will read "Pundunk School of Self-Defense." If people ask who I trained with, I can point them to my teachers. I will continue to be a student of the Bujinkan and come back and see my teachers whenever I can. If there is an aspect of the training the students want to go further in then can go to my teachers while not expecting that everything they learned from me is what these teachers might approve of. The only problem I still have is that I don't plan on giving out ranks and can't. I think that I don't want people that care about ranks to train under me. But if I did, then I would have a trouble.

So that is the best reason I can think of starting your own style. You add aspects from another art and don't feel it is correct to give out ranks in the old style if the head of that art does not do the new things. And I know that some students demand that there be ranks for them to see their progress.
 

Gemini

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MJS said:
Yes, of course, the longer you work at something the better you'll be, but is there a certain time when someone can say that they've mastered something?Mike
I guess that's my whole point, Mike. Don't most systems have Master's or Sensei's? Are they not who they are because the system they train in has acknowledged their right to teach that art? To answer your question, NO. There isn't a certain time that you can proclaim yourself a Master of an art that was created before you. Ever. It's something that can only be acknowledged by your peers and seniors in that art. You want to dabble in multiple arts because you have a curious nature? Do it. You want to cross train? More power to ya. But learning things for personal growth and benefit is a very different animal from teaching others. If passing along knowledge of multiple arts is what you want to do, then you better be able to show me that someone who has the authority in that art has granted you the right to represent that art. Whether directly or mixed. If you're going to profess to be a master of an art you created by combining arts x, y and z, then you better be able to show you mastered x, y and z.

I train in TKD and Kendo. I have also trained in HDGD and Hapkido. I am not a master of any of these arts, though my experience ranges from several months to many years. Does that then give me the right to combine them, give them a new name and sell it to someone who doesn't know any better? Let me just say if you see Gemini-do posted anywhere, shoot me. Do I feel capable of defending myself? Absolutely! Do I feel capable of teaching these things to the masses? If I offer to, God help them, I hope they run.
 

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I am kinda split on this. although I am completely against people "reinventing the wheel" when it comes to a certain style of martial arts (Juko Kai), and I am against people who throw crap together and call it something asian, there is a line.

when an individual trains in 3 or 4 martial arts (specifically traditional) and achieves "black belts" or whatever in them, then teaches it, what does one call it? you could say its, for example, "Southern shaolin and Taekwondo but ground fighting, clinching, and striking defenses of Brazialian jiu jitsu, a complete kali system, and kata from shito ryu are thrown in" or you could say (for example) carlson blend martial arts" or "Carlson's mixed martial art system" or something like that. that way people know they are not getting a pure system, but a blend of different things. this will also keep confusion down so when someone acheives a BB in that mixed martial art, they will not think that what they have is pure, and end up looking like a fool in front of "purists" since they didnt spend as much time on that particular area of the art.

but no..... if someone studies karate and kali for a year simultaneously, they shouldnt go and make up "Wilson ryu shaolin Tantobojutsu-do" or some crap like that. doesnt mean they wont, but shouldnt.
 

47MartialMan

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Originally Posted by Bester
Why do people feel the need to "create" their own art.

Drac said:
Money and Vanity..
Same goes for the ranking. Why have any type of ranking at all. The people within the same system know who is the teacher, highest to lowest in training without such. And say someone was at a school for 3 years, then another is there for 2 years, the 2 year can best the 3 year-what is in a rank?
 

47MartialMan

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I like this:

Don Roley said:
Ok,
Let me cause some trouble by sorta playing Devil's advocate. This may surprise a lot since it is well known that I have a bad attitude toward people that deicide they can be heads of their own art when I train with people who show up every week for class with their teacher longer than many American sokes are alive..
\
So you are saying that someone whom claoms to be a soke, you train with their instructor longer than he?


Don Roley said:
I do Bujinkan and anything else I can try here in Japan. It is my art. When I move it is with Bujinkan habits- or at least I try to do so.

I also have an interest in other arts, but mainly guns and knives. I actually travel back to America from time to time to train under people who have used those items in real combat. That type of experience is a little rare in Japan...
Because the social structure is different, than the need to modify a art per social era/environment is there. If someone ramons in that particular social strcuture, then they have to modify/adept to those.

Don Roley said:
Now, there are many, many good moves that I have had to drop from my training because they did not quite fit with my operating system. There was nothing wrong with them, they just started off with slightly different strategies and taken as a whole they were slightly off from what I try to do. I do not want to do too much and stretch myself too thin. If a move clashes even a little with my Bujinkan training, I drop it or modify it..
But a move with a gun, or modification against some with versitility, and it clasehes with your Bujinkan training, if youre going to continue to be expose to thast other social structure, it is best to add and/or modify your Bujinkan training.

Don Roley said:
Now what I have left and train in is something I think is in line with what I have trained in the Bujinkan. But I am not perfect and make mistakes. The Bujinkan is headed by someone else and for me to add or modify things and put it out under his name just seems wrong to me....
Not unless they, themselves have a political, power, personal gain from not allowing one to go forth and make some fresh changes. If the head of school dislikes when someone had changed something, then it is no different when they had leaned something from other resources, changed/modify things, and call it their own.

Don Roley said:
So the answer seems to be to start my own style. Then when people say that what they see me do is not Bujinkan, I can respond that is is not Bujinkan but another style. If I do not use the Bujinkan name then my failures can't be laid at the Bujinkan's feet..
By why not reference it as part of your experience and training. Why cant you reference them if you create your own system? Why can't you use termonology, titles, methods from your previous system, to your creation.?Your "fore-fathers have done so.

Don Roley said:
But at the same time, if I am the head of an art, who do I go to in order to improve myself.?.
I am not talking about the occasional seminar. Real improvement seems to come from having a teacher that knows you and your weaknesses and rubs your noses in it until you get rid of them. ?.Sometimes these weak points are things that you are not even aware of. They are blind spots. And blind spots are not just things you can't see, but things you don't know you can't see.[/QUOTE]What if you had learned all that you can from that particular instructor? What if that particular instructor dided before this can happen?

Don Roley said:
And if I am the head of my own art, who do I go to to get that type of relationship in order to improve myself?.
Did these others, whom had become heads of their organization-do the same?

Don Roley said:
Also, Kelly McMann first pointed this out but I have seen multiple examples of it with my own eyes. Once someone creates something and gives it a name associated with them, they then tend to put a lot of energy into defending that item. They have a lot of "face" involved in it since it comes from them. When presented with the hard facts that something with thier name on it is flawed somehow, they do not react like a student and ditch the flawed technique for a superior one. They cling to and defend the one that is "their's" to the death..
But in their mind, it is not flawed. People with opposing opinions on what it should or shouldn't be create flaws.

Don Roley said:
I have seen that happed time and time again. People get so involved with the fact that they have created their art that they stop growing. They care so much about the opinions of others who view them as a master that they can't drop all that they have and take a new path no matter how much proof you show that the old path is flawed. Oh, and I am not so foolish to think that I can't fall into that trap..
Again, masters of the past whom created their own arts, do you think they had desire to learn other arts in this later stages?

Don Roley said:
A.) My answer, right now, is to just have a training group with no names. If I open up a dojo in a mini-mall in Pundunk the sign will read "Pundunk School of Self-Defense."

B.) If people ask who I trained with, I can point them to my teachers. I will continue to be a student of the Bujinkan and come back and see my teachers whenever I can. If there is an aspect of the training the students want to go further in then can go to my teachers while not expecting that everything they learned from me is what these teachers might approve of.

C.) The only problem I still have is that I don't plan on giving out ranks and can't. I think that I don't want people that care about ranks to train under me. But if I did, then I would have a trouble..
A.) But if you open a school with such a generic name, many will not be intrigued enough by it to visit, and ultimately the goal, pay for services. Why not mention the school that you trained in? Why not pay homage to that name by mentioning it so "bold"?

B.) Very good. It shows respect and charecter not only to your previous teachers, but to your students. I do this very thing to this day, from many years.

C.) And why can't you rank someone up to one rank below your own? Of course you wouldn't want any mention of, say Bujinkan, on the certs without permission.

Don Roley said:
So that is the best reason I can think of starting your own style. You add aspects from another art and don't feel it is correct to give out ranks in the old style if the head of that art does not do the new things. And I know that some students demand that there be ranks for them to see their progress.
But arts were constantly developing into new using aspects. If you open your new style, "Pundunk School of Self-Defense-Bujinkan Trained/Certified"....this would give someone a litttle more detail in case your door was closed or to habe someone spot the name, Bujinkan, and is familiar with it, to gp and sign up.
 

MJS

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Gemini said:
I guess that's my whole point, Mike. Don't most systems have Master's or Sensei's? Are they not who they are because the system they train in has acknowledged their right to teach that art? To answer your question, NO. There isn't a certain time that you can proclaim yourself a Master of an art that was created before you. Ever. It's something that can only be acknowledged by your peers and seniors in that art. You want to dabble in multiple arts because you have a curious nature? Do it. You want to cross train? More power to ya. But learning things for personal growth and benefit is a very different animal from teaching others. If passing along knowledge of multiple arts is what you want to do, then you better be able to show me that someone who has the authority in that art has granted you the right to represent that art. Whether directly or mixed. If you're going to profess to be a master of an art you created by combining arts x, y and z, then you better be able to show you mastered x, y and z.

I train in TKD and Kendo. I have also trained in HDGD and Hapkido. I am not a master of any of these arts, though my experience ranges from several months to many years. Does that then give me the right to combine them, give them a new name and sell it to someone who doesn't know any better? Let me just say if you see Gemini-do posted anywhere, shoot me. Do I feel capable of defending myself? Absolutely! Do I feel capable of teaching these things to the masses? If I offer to, God help them, I hope they run.

Again, some very good points. Just to clarify, please don't take my post as disagreeing. It is definately IMHO, extremely important to have a Master, Sensei, Head, etc. person to oversee what is being taught. Personally I don't understand why someone has to run out, train in X number of arts, combine them, and then walk around saying that they've created a new system. The 3 arts that I currently train in all have someone that I can keep learning from. I, like you, am certainly no Master and never refer to myself as one. If someone wants to learn Arnis, thats what I'd teach them. Not some mixture of various things. Now, sure, when I'm training on my own, running through a Kenpo technique, I might stop and say, "Hmm...as a follow up, a lock from Arnis would fit in perfectly right here!" but again, that is for my own personal gains.

Its also important for someone who wants to start training, to do their homework. Speaking for myself, but if I'm going to spend my hard earned money I want to make sure that I'm learning a legit system from a legit person.

Mike
 

47MartialMan

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MJS said:
A.) It is definately IMHO, extremely important to have a Master, Sensei, Head, etc. person to oversee what is being taught.
What if the master or highest rank dies and doesn't appoint a succesor? Then you have a bunch of ranking individuals they come forth and want to lay claim to be the most authority of that system. Then there is a huge feud or political controvesry. To which some of the individuals will go out and learn other things. Given so many years, finding out another art. Why can the particualr individual create something new because there is nothing worth wild around his area? (Of course after much time spent as a martial artist with many years many years.)

MJS said:
Personally I don't understand why someone has to run out, train in X number of arts, combine them, and then walk around saying that they've created a new system.
Ditto my above reply. Consider that this has been done WITH every art since the "dawn of time". One of my instructors had done this. But he doesn't proclaim himself and particular rank or master-though we call him this. He does not introduce himself this way. On his certs to students, he simply has "founder" in English. After practicing with him for 20 years, doing some of those years, he gave me his "blessing" to go and learn other things. He wanted his dedicated people to expand themselves. I did, but instead of starting a new system (I already had 17 years before I met this instructor), I had asked if I could use the name of his upon opening my own. (Which I had moved about 6-7 hours away.) He gave me the ok, I had printed certs and have his name/slot with his name printed underneath a signature line that says he his founder/master. I have him sign certificates as paying homage. Now, he is "retired". He gave me just about all of his personall stuff. Including his own chops, punch seal, remaining certs. He has the confidence in my abilities in not only to teach, but to award rank. he will come by, sign.seal certs on his appointed line, and return do his lifestyle. Higher ranks, he will observe their perfomances/testing. After, he dies, I cannot continue to have such slot for his siganture, but I can mention his name there-somewhere. My fellow "alumni" or classmates, either moved and started learning new arts, or when they had moved, started their own system. Under permission, they teach "our" (meaning the art we were studying per under same/said instructor) methods. Doing so they say "this method/routine came from...."

MJS said:
The 3 arts that I currently train in all have someone that I can keep learning from.
You are forunate. What if any art were not so vast in the amount of people higher than you out there? What if one of those head instructors passed away? Why do you train in multiple arts? If you are experience and skilled in 3, and there are no objections, teach the mixture of all 3.

MJS said:
I, like you, am certainly no Master and never refer to myself as one. If someone wants to learn Arnis, thats what I'd teach them.
I look favorably upon people who do not vocally or "wave" such rank/title (per a website or documents) being modest and knowing that they have much to learn. (Careful, though there is much to learn, certain things in one's life will change their abilites-like a accident/injury. Will this handicap make you less of who you are?)

MJS said:
Not some mixture of various things. Now, sure, when I'm training on my own, running through a Kenpo technique, I might stop and say, "Hmm...as a follow up, a lock from Arnis would fit in perfectly right here!" but again, that is for my own personal gains.
But if it is for your personal gains, why not do the same for your students or people whom train with you? Why can't they also "gain" from your mixture? Learning 3 arts have advantage than learning one-provided there is much time spent in training each. To me, IMHO, the more time spent in training each other before moving on, give more experience. However, under circumstances, this may not be possible. (Like you or your instrutor moves/ Or- worse your instructor dies prematurely before you can gain much more. Do you reject stating that you trained with he? Do you not state or instruct his art?)

MJS said:
Its also important for someone who wants to start training, to do their homework. Speaking for myself, but if I'm going to spend my hard earned money I want to make sure that I'm learning a legit system from a legit person.
IMHO, the creating of a "new" system is ok provided that "decades" of training is accompied. That someone is not in a "rush" to do so out of wrong reasons (which are IMHO) such as ego, profit/comercialism. The common issue with style creating is the same as ranking-they are the duplicity from a commodity per pecuniary avarice.
 

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I'll do my best to answer your questions here.


47MartialMan said:
What if the master or highest rank dies and doesn't appoint a succesor? Then you have a bunch of ranking individuals they come forth and want to lay claim to be the most authority of that system. Then there is a huge feud or political controvesry. To which some of the individuals will go out and learn other things. Given so many years, finding out another art. Why can the particualr individual create something new because there is nothing worth wild around his area? (Of course after much time spent as a martial artist with many years many years.)

Having the Head of the system pass and then having controversy is something that has happened and probably will keep happening. Modern Arnis is a good example. When Prof. Presas passed on, there was that mass confusion. Fortunately, there were some people out there who decided to carry on his art with the interest of the art and the Prof. in mind. Sadly, there are some out there that are looking only at their own personal gains.

Ditto my above reply. Consider that this has been done WITH every art since the "dawn of time". One of my instructors had done this. But he doesn't proclaim himself and particular rank or master-though we call him this. He does not introduce himself this way. On his certs to students, he simply has "founder" in English. After practicing with him for 20 years, doing some of those years, he gave me his "blessing" to go and learn other things. He wanted his dedicated people to expand themselves. I did, but instead of starting a new system (I already had 17 years before I met this instructor), I had asked if I could use the name of his upon opening my own. (Which I had moved about 6-7 hours away.) He gave me the ok, I had printed certs and have his name/slot with his name printed underneath a signature line that says he his founder/master. I have him sign certificates as paying homage. Now, he is "retired". He gave me just about all of his personall stuff. Including his own chops, punch seal, remaining certs. He has the confidence in my abilities in not only to teach, but to award rank. he will come by, sign.seal certs on his appointed line, and return do his lifestyle. Higher ranks, he will observe their perfomances/testing. After, he dies, I cannot continue to have such slot for his siganture, but I can mention his name there-somewhere. My fellow "alumni" or classmates, either moved and started learning new arts, or when they had moved, started their own system. Under permission, they teach "our" (meaning the art we were studying per under same/said instructor) methods. Doing so they say "this method/routine came from...."

I'm afraid Sir there was some confusion. Yes, this probably has been done for a long time, but systems such as Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, Kenpo, Kempo, etc. are established systems. I'm talking about the "Frank Dux" guy who runs out and creats a hodgepodge system and calls it his own. You have been a member of this forum for a while now, so I don't think I have to explain to you what I"m talking about.

You are forunate. What if any art were not so vast in the amount of people higher than you out there?

There is always someone to train with. Keep in mind, its the knowledge the person has, not the color of the belt or the number of stripes they have on it.

What if one of those head instructors passed away?

Again, there is always someone to train with. Its just a matter of seeking that person out.

Why do you train in multiple arts?

There are so many things out there, why not take a look at the others? Kenpo is my base art. It covers a wide area, but I wanted to further expand on certain areas, hence the reason for the BJJ and the Arnis. To further round out my grappling and weapons training. Keep in mind that cross training is not for everyone, but there is nothing wrong with cross referrencing.

If you are experience and skilled in 3, and there are no objections, teach the mixture of all 3.

If I was teaching a Kenpo class, the focus is going to be on Kenpo. That is what they came for and they might not want anything else. Have small aspects been brought from Arnis into the Kenpo class? Sure. One of my Kenpo inst. did this from time to time, but he also had a seperate Arnis class for those who wanted to explore that further. We're all different. What I like may be different from the next person.

I look favorably upon people who do not vocally or "wave" such rank/title (per a website or documents) being modest and knowing that they have much to learn. (Careful, though there is much to learn, certain things in one's life will change their abilites-like a accident/injury. Will this handicap make you less of who you are?)

IMHO, I'm not concerned with rank. Sadly, many people out there are belt hungry. Maybe its an ego thing, I don't know. I want to train and learn. Those are my goals.

But if it is for your personal gains, why not do the same for your students or people whom train with you? Why can't they also "gain" from your mixture? Learning 3 arts have advantage than learning one-provided there is much time spent in training each. To me, IMHO, the more time spent in training each other before moving on, give more experience. However, under circumstances, this may not be possible. (Like you or your instrutor moves/ Or- worse your instructor dies prematurely before you can gain much more. Do you reject stating that you trained with he? Do you not state or instruct his art?)

Again, not everyone may want that blend, but instead to focus on just one art. If its something someone wants, I have no secrets, I'd show them! If something happened to my Arnis instructor, I would not reject him or his training, but again, if it was something that I enjoyed training in, which obviously it is, I'd seek out another instructor.

IMHO, the creating of a "new" system is ok provided that "decades" of training is accompied. That someone is not in a "rush" to do so out of wrong reasons (which are IMHO) such as ego, profit/comercialism. The common issue with style creating is the same as ranking-they are the duplicity from a commodity per pecuniary avarice.

Sadly Sir, people do not always have the best interest of others in mind. Instead, they're more interested in being a fraud and cheating unsuspecting people out of their hard earned money. How can one be sure that that "creator of the new system" has "decades" of training? Again, I refer you to some past discussions on this very forum.

Thank you for the discussion. It certianly has been interesting. :ultracool

Mike
 

47MartialMan

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MJS said:
I'll do my best to answer your questions here.
Well, I may have or have not the answers. Some of my questions/posts are in pondernce, devil's adovocate, seeking more detail responses. Not all reflect my opinion. Sometimes my opinion is best left to myself or it could have me kicked off here. Bottom line, I dont mind subtle controversy but dislike it when it gets out of hand. I dislike when some badgers another to expose or amus themselves. If anything is done politely, then I see no harm in seeking answers to certain questions.

MJS said:
Having the Head of the system pass and then having controversy is something that has happened and probably will keep happening. Modern Arnis is a good example. When Prof. Presas passed on, there was that mass confusion. Fortunately, there were some people out there who decided to carry on his art with the interest of the art and the Prof. in mind. Sadly, there are some out there that are looking only at their own personal gains.
The same with a style creator. This kind of thing is not limited to "new creators"


MJS said:
I'm afraid Sir there was some confusion. Yes, this probably has been done for a long time, but systems such as Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, Kenpo, Kempo, etc. are established systems. I'm talking about the "Frank Dux" guy who runs out and creats a hodgepodge system and calls it his own. You have been a member of this forum for a while now, so I don't think I have to explain to you what I"m talking about.
You mean you wouldnt train with Frank Dux? Come-on, these others had a hodge podge. these other were new and un-established upon their development. Many of these have a shrouded-unproven, vague history. Why are they different than the Frank Dux(s)


MJS said:
There is always someone to train with. Keep in mind, its the knowledge the person has, not the color of the belt or the number of stripes they have on it.
I agree. Too bad many do not realize this. But why should anyone display any rank?


MJS said:
Again, there is always someone to train with. Its just a matter of seeking that person out.
Depends on where you reside and your lifestyle.


MJS said:
There are so many things out there, why not take a look at the others? Kenpo is my base art. It covers a wide area, but I wanted to further expand on certain areas, hence the reason for the BJJ and the Arnis. To further round out my grappling and weapons training. Keep in mind that cross training is not for everyone, but there is nothing wrong with cross referrencing.
So why not ask your students what they desire? They may desire the "mix".


MJS said:
If I was teaching a Kenpo class, the focus is going to be on Kenpo. That is what they came for and they might not want anything else. Have small aspects been brought from Arnis into the Kenpo class? Sure. One of my Kenpo inst. did this from time to time, but he also had a seperate Arnis class for those who wanted to explore that further. We're all different. What I like may be different from the next person.
Hence what one desires to create their own system is different from those that think otherwise.


MJS said:
IMHO, I'm not concerned with rank. Sadly, many people out there are belt hungry. Maybe its an ego thing, I don't know. I want to train and learn. Those are my goals.
Good, dispose any ranking, belts, or certificates. Or do as I did, "file them away"


MJS said:
Again, not everyone may want that blend, but instead to focus on just one art. If its something someone wants, I have no secrets, I'd show them! If something happened to my Arnis instructor, I would not reject him or his training, but again, if it was something that I enjoyed training in, which obviously it is, I'd seek out another instructor.
So, if you go from instructor to instructor, any may have added or subjected what they feel. So you are getting their own version. Their own sub-creation. If I came to you, I would want the blend. But with the undersatnding that you would tell me this move came from this or that.


MJS said:
Sadly Sir, people do not always have the best interest of others in mind. Instead, they're more interested in being a fraud and cheating unsuspecting people out of their hard earned money. How can one be sure that that "creator of the new system" has "decades" of training? Again, I refer you to some past discussions on this very forum.
Sad, that is the point. How can one say that one did or had not. Only one's direct peers, surrounding him (not his students), that know/knew of him from decades, can state this. Many in my home town, which I can list who practice other arts and from other instructors different than mine, know me for decades.

MJS said:
Thank you for the discussion. It certianly has been interesting. :ultracool
Likewise, and I didnt have to know any personal info on you (sorry to "cross-thread")
 
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Bester

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My rant isn't about cross training, which I think is valuable.

It's aimed at the fools who dabble here and there, and make their own art up, buy some credibility and start milking the public. The green-belt part timers that open schools, jump to 3rd dan or higher. The "Sokes" and "Great GrandMasters". The jokes that write a few books and suddenly think they are qualified to do spinoffs of established arts.
 

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47MartialMan said:
You mean you wouldnt train with Frank Dux?

I certainly hope that you're joking here. But to answer your question, no, I would not train with him. If I wanted to learn Ninjutsu, there are many others out there that I would seek out.


I agree. Too bad many do not realize this. But why should anyone display any rank?

To each his/her own.


Depends on where you reside and your lifestyle.

Very true. But there are people out there that would not think twice about driving 2 hrs. to train if it meant that they were getting quality instruction.


So why not ask your students what they desire? They may desire the "mix".

As I said, I have no secret techs. If thats what someone would want, thats fine.


So, if you go from instructor to instructor, any may have added or subjected what they feel. So you are getting their own version. Their own sub-creation.

Thats very possible. Many times in an org. there are guidelines as to how things are taught. Again, I'll use Arnis as an example. You have IMAF, IMAF Inc., WMAA, MA-80, and some others. Will each org. teach Arnis? Yes. Will it be the same exact way? No. In my Arnis org. (IMAF Inc) there are a few different people that I could seek out. Will they all move the same exact robotic way? Of course not, as we're not robots, but the concepts are the same.


That is the point. How can one say that one did or had not. Only ones direct peers, surrounding him (not his students), that know/knew of him from decades, can state this. many in my home town, which i can list who [ractice other arts and from other instructors different than mine, know me for decades.

Its called research and doing your homework.


Mike
 

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Bester said:
My rant isn't about cross training, which I think is valuable.

It's aimed at the fools who dabble here and there, and make their own art up, buy some credibility and start milking the public. The green-belt part timers that open schools, jump to 3rd dan or higher. The "Sokes" and "Great GrandMasters". The jokes that write a few books and suddenly think they are qualified to do spinoffs of established arts.

Exactly. I'm sure we've all seen some examples of that on here.
 
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There are a couple of big differences between, "Creating your 'own' art," and either cross-training or sticking together the bits and pieces of however many different systems.

The first is internal, and the question to ask is this: does this particular, "creator," see martial arts differently, and have they fundamentally changed, as a result of their, "creation?" If not, there's no new system. Bruce Lee might fit this category--except that if you actually go back and look at the Chinese arts, a lot of what he had to say about practicality and the system of no system is already there.

The second question is this: is this new system radically differently structured from what came before it; is a student's experience fundamentally different? If not, no new system. Bruce Lee wouldn't fit this category, except in the sense that he apparently got students to see their fighting and training differently....although opinions differ even about that, and a lot of the, "Bruce Lee," stuff is actually straight out of his movies.

I think that: a) a lot of this is just marketing; b) some of it is just people who don't know the history of their own art or arts; c) some of it is people who are confusing THEIR development and their training with their students'; d) some of it is folks who think that it's all just sticking the Legos together to make different stuff; e) some of it comes from buying into the latest cliches, such as, "striking arts need grappling arts to Complete Them," as though that were news.

Most all of this stuff simply isn't a new system. Most of the people proclaiming them simply aren't competent to do so. Most of these, 'developments," simply repeat the past, or appear without any real relation to history.
 

Makalakumu

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rmcrobertson said:
3. If TKD has a system, comparable to kenpo, fine. Just explain what it is.
That is really hard to do on the internet. I do know that the Kukkiwon has a well thought out system. Visit a good TKD dojang. Strap on some gear and spar if you'd like to see more...
 

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MJS said:
I certainly hope that you're joking here. But to answer your question, no, I would not train with him. If I wanted to learn Ninjutsu, there are many others out there that I would seek out.
But what if he was close by and other were12 or more hours away-you wouldn't go visit out of curiouisty?


MJS said:
To each his/her own.
Yeah, some people like cooked liver, some do not. some people like dog meat, some do not.


MJS said:
Very true. But there are people out there that would not think twice about driving 2 hrs. to train if it meant that they were getting quality instruction.
2 hrs is reasonable, but several with a carrer/lifestly, many do not have such a luxury so that latch on to someting close.


MJS said:
As I said, I have no secret techs. If thats what someone would want, thats fine.
Will you openly offer it before the request?


MJS said:
Thats very possible. Many times in an org. there are guidelines as to how things are taught. Again, I'll use Arnis as an example. You have IMAF, IMAF Inc., WMAA, MA-80, and some others. Will each org. teach Arnis? Yes. Will it be the same exact way? No. In my Arnis org. (IMAF Inc) there are a few different people that I could seek out. Will they all move the same exact robotic way? Of course not, as we're not robots, but the concepts are the same.
Will everyone with that are and different org except each as qualified?


MJS said:
Its called research and doing your homework.
It is also called lazy or gullibility. Or some may not even care.
 

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47MartialMan said:
But what if he was close by and other were12 or more hours away-you wouldn't go visit out of curiouisty?

Then I guess I don't study Ninjutsu then.



2 hrs is reasonable, but several with a carrer/lifestly, many do not have such a luxury so that latch on to someting close.

Yup, thats true. However, my BJJ inst. trains under Roy Harris. He travels to Ca. to see him. Again, it all depends on the person. Some would do it, some would not!


Will you openly offer it before the request?

Please re-read my past posts. I stated that if someone came for a Kenpo class, that is what they'd get..Kenpo. Would I show bits like my old inst. used to do? Sure. Would I start blending everything..Kenpo, Arnis, and BJJ? No, because that is not what they came for.


Will everyone with that are and different org except each as qualified?

Can you say this again so I can understand it?


It is also called lazy or gullibility. Or some may not even care.

Before anyone invests a large amount of money, doing some homework is important IMO. Would you buy a house without looking at it or having it inspected? What about a car? Would you test drive it before buying? The list can go on and on. If someone chooses not to research something, then that old saying "Let the buyer beware" comes to mind.

Mike
 

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47MartialMan said:
Why do you train in multiple arts? If you are experience and skilled in 3, and there are no objections, teach the mixture of all 3.

My sensei is the highest ranking instructor in Finland in 3 arts, which he teaches across Finland and other European countries: Shorinji ryu karate, Tauramuso ryu kobujutsu and Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu Iaido. Some of his students study two or even all three arts he teaches. While they all are, to him, more or less one and the same art, he still doesn't teach a mixture of three, because most of those who are interested in e.g. iaido aren't interested in karate. If he were to teach a totally new creation that combines all three arts (and the others he has trained in), it would probably not interest so many people. Currently, at least to me, he is the best instructor I can imagine and I consider myself very lucky that I "stumbled upon" him.
 

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I think we hit the "dead horse kicking" phase now.

For centuries this arguement has been going on.
"I don't like the way you do things".
"I like the way I do things"....
"you can't POSSIBLEY create a new "art" when you don't have a lineage".
Every single "art" form on the planet was new at one time and started by someone who didn't like what there neighbor was doing.
And the neighbor and his followers was ticked to the max because someone wanted to do something different!
6 billion people on this planet and at the end of the day,no matter how you look at it.....
A KICK IS A KICK AND A PUNCH IS A PUNCH.
The ONLY thing that changes is personal philosophy and relaying of information.Thats it!
I stated before,I have been in the martial arts since the age of 6(yea me)
Out of all the different things I have studied,and that has been a LOT of exposure,the only thing I have seen different is what I just stated....personal opinion.
Lets take the simple everyday basic front kick;

Step 1:lift the knee.
Step 2:Extend the leg.
Step 3 Retract leg
Step 4: Lower knee.

I have seen korean,japanese,chinese,french,indonesian...basically...everybody...do it the same way.

The only that changes is the persons preference of contact area of the extended leg and striking target.Not to mention thier idea of how and when it should be used.
Does anybody know any other way to do a front kick?
I'm open!
With 6 billion people on the planet,you AIN'T gonna please all of them no matter what your "lineage" is!
So if someone wants to teach a front kick in english,swahili or whatever language...does that make it any less a front kick?!
I think not.
Now I'm just a redneck country boy from onslow county,north carolina and my uncle could do a front kick that could darn near kick a mules neck in half.
And he did it just like every other "art" form there is(that I know of)...and ya know what? He never heard of karoddy!
So other than the blatant scam artists(who should be shot)...
Whats the problem with teaching the EXACT same physical thing "you" do...just a differnt way or philosophy?

People with direct,accountable "lineages":)shrug: )can can't please everyone.....
no matter how hard you try.
 

47MartialMan

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Bammx2 said:
A.)Whats the problem with teaching the EXACT same physical thing "you" do...just a differnt way or philosophy?

B.) People with direct,accountable "lineages":)shrug: )can can't please everyone.....
no matter how hard you try.
A.) Yes, a rose by any other name is still a rose.
B.) Meaning tha you can't please people with direct lineages-or-people with direct lineages dont please others without?

I had enjoyed your post entirely. And I didn't have to know your background.
 

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