Creating a very light weight, collapsible baton - feedback needed

geezer

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I am skeptical. If you watched the video that drop bear posted in which a guy, very well trained, deployed his folding knife under ideal circumstances, standing straight up and facing an inanimate target (a balloon), he drew, deployed it, and stabbed pretty much as efficiently as anyone can expect to do, and it still took about 2.4 seconds, if I recall. I'm sure you can imagine just how many stabs and cuts your opponent can deliver within that time frame.

I'm serious. Try this against someone who is coming at you with repeated thrusts and/or cuts while you try to deploy your knife. It is extremely difficult to deploy a folder from your pocket, even if you've poured many hours of practice into this.
Hey Argus, if the quote above is taken to support carrying a fixed blade over a folder because it can be deployed a little bit faster, I remain unconvinced. I mean, is that fraction of a second you might save even the issue in self defense situations?

If somebody suddenly and violently attacks you, totally "out of the blue" at very close range --especially with a weapon such as a knife, club, bottle, brick, rock, speeding truck, or handful of dog-poo, I doubt if you will have time to adequately defend yourself regardless of what you are carrying.

Fortunately, other than in an assassination, most people do not attack without giving some warning signs. Awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and retreat/escape are far more important than what you carry.

...and on the bright side, dog-poo is rarely fatal! :)
 

Argus

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Hey Argus, if the quote above is taken to support carrying a fixed blade over a folder because it can be deployed a little bit faster, I remain unconvinced. I mean, is that fraction of a second you might save even the issue in self defense situations?
It makes a big difference in my experience. I can parry and access a pen or fixed blade quickly and reliably under pressure. A folding knife in my pocket, I usually have to with my off hand parry two, three, or four times before I've got it out, if I didn't stumble and miss my pocket, or screw up flicking the knife open. By that time I've usually been overwhelmed by my partner.

If somebody suddenly and violently attacks you, totally "out of the blue" at very close range --especially with a weapon such as a knife, club, bottle, brick, rock, speeding truck, or handful of dog-poo, I doubt if you will have time to adequately defend yourself regardless of what you are carrying.

Fortunately, other than in an assassination, most people do not attack without giving some warning signs. Awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and retreat/escape are far more important than what you carry.

...and on the bright side, dog-poo is rarely fatal! :)

This is a very good point that perhaps I'm not weighing enough. Sure, if you have time to see trouble coming and can deploy a folding knife in advance, it's a much more viable tool.

And, as you correctly point out, awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, and retreat/escape are indeed far more important than what you carry.

For the record, it's not actually legal to carry a knife of any significant useful length where I am living now. When I lived in the U.S., I put quite a bit of thought into what I carry, and how I carry it, but it's not something I really think about these days. The very few times I've run into trouble in either country, awareness, avoidance and de-escalation have all served me well and kept me out of any harm or trouble.
 

Argus

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Maybe you should read some of the books Kirk has written or contributed to... He's a subject-matter expert.

I respect Kirk a lot, though he can come off just a bit condescending at times. I wasn't actually aware he had a book though. Maybe I'll check it out.

I don't give much of any weight to authority during discussions, though. If someone says something that doesn't seem to make sense to me, I'll question it. Expertise doesn't necessarily equate to being right, and certainly not to being right all of the time and on all matters. And by questioning, I learn whether or not I'm wrong, or where I what I might be missing.

So, I often make somewhat assertive statements, but that doesn't mean I'm not humble or looking to learn.
 

Argus

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We are talking about a knife in a pocket with a pocket clip? Or just jammed all the way in there under your keys or something.

I ride a motorbike for a living and can get to my utility knife from that position reasonably ok.

Clipped inside the pocket. Even with the knife partially exposed and clipped onto the inside of a jeans pocket, I find it difficult to reliably access once you start moving and lowering your center of gravity.

Usually what I do is use my thumb, pointing down, to index just below my belt, and slide down inside of my pocket (to find my pocket), and then slide back until I feel / find my folding knife, clipped onto my jeans pocket. This is very easy to do when standing up straight, but is much harder when you start moving and lowering your center of gravity (that pocket closes up really well), and even if you wear quite similar jeans all of the time, slight differences in where the pockets are can really mess you up. Add pressure from a training partner actively attacking you, and the difficulty is multiplied ten fold on top of this.

With belt carry, even when concealed/inside the waisteband, it is much easier to access the weapon sufficiently quickly, and most importantly, reliably.

It's important to realize that while you're fiddling around and trying to reach in your pocket, you've got someone coming at you with lethal force and intending to do you serious harm. At that moment, you're putting one hand down and out of action and trying to perform some very complex motor skills under stress, splitting your attention and temporarily handicapping yourself.

Of course, there are ways you can change this dynamic. You can respond with both hands, empty-handed, create space, and then access your weapon, or you can take hold of it before hand if you see trouble coming -- preferably in a way that is neither obvious nor provoking/escalating. If you are deploying it as you are being attacked, however, anything carried in the belt is infinitely easier to access than anything carried inside of, or clipped onto, a front pocket.

Back pockets are somewhat more manageable, but keeping something like a folding knife there isn't the most comfortable or ideal for obvious reasons, and may even be dangerous (as it's much easier for someone to actually pick-pocket it... potentially arming a would-be thief?).

Give it a try with a training partner and I think you'll quickly appreciate my point.
 
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lklawson

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Fixed blades and batons are generally carried on or inside the belt, which is much more accessible (even if concealed) than a pocket, in my experience. They're also sturdier, easier to deploy (especially in the case of the fixed blade), and have longer reach (in the case of the baton, at least. The fixed blade potentially as well, but I suppose it depends on local laws). In short, I just see them as simpler, sturdier, more reliable, and more accessible options. A folding knife is more of a utility implement that is typically not designed for, or carried in a manner which lends itself to use as a weapon.
I agree.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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I respect Kirk a lot, though he can come off just a bit condescending at times.
That's fair. I write differently than I speak. When I write, I tend to write much more cerebrally, even though I try to write conversationally. Further, I kinda gave up taking positions I don't have a very strong reason to do so. If I state something as a fact, it's because I have a reasoned and evidenced base to draw from. When it's my opinion or, on the rare occasion if I feel like throwing a Devil's Advocate, I will state that.

So, yeah, if I write something it's because, to the very best of my knowledge, it's factual. And if someone disagrees with that, then, to the very best of my knowledge, they're disagreeing with facts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

drop bear

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That's fair. I write differently than I speak. When I write, I tend to write much more cerebrally, even though I try to write conversationally. Further, I kinda gave up taking positions I don't have a very strong reason to do so. If I state something as a fact, it's because I have a reasoned and evidenced base to draw from. When it's my opinion or, on the rare occasion if I feel like throwing a Devil's Advocate, I will state that.

So, yeah, if I write something it's because, to the very best of my knowledge, it's factual. And if someone disagrees with that, then, to the very best of my knowledge, they're disagreeing with facts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Wait what?

So fact is your opinion of fact?
 

drop bear

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Well, he is in fact, a published expert on his field of study. That should count for something in this instance considering the topic. However, what I think should count is not a factual statement, just pure opinion.

Peer reviewed? Or opinion pieces?
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Peer reviewed? Or opinion pieces?
Good question. Ask him. I have one of his books. It is well written, though I have no expertise on the topic. He is a published author and I found his book to be informative. I thought it was superior in content over other authors who wrote on similar topics. Again, only my opinion, which isnt thoroughly informed.
 

drop bear

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Good question. Ask him. I have one of his books. It is well written, though I have no expertise on the topic. He is a published author and I found his book to be informative. I thought it was superior in content over other authors who wrote on similar topics. Again, only my opinion, which isnt thoroughly informed.

Yeah. But self defence is pretty much an opinion based industry.

Take Mark Mcyoung for example.

His whole bio is basically a bunch of catch phrases. And he is a published author subject matter expert.
 

Argus

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Wait what?

So fact is your opinion of fact?
He did say "to the very best of my knowledge, it's factual"

Honestly, I get where he's coming from.

I was just participating in another discussion on another forum about economics, which I happen have pretty good knowledge of (and I know the extent/limitations of that knowledge). And, I can be rather matter-of-fact in how I discuss that topic. That probably comes off condescending at times, though it's never my intent. At the same time, it can be a bit irksome when some people strongly argue points about a topic that they display ignorance of.

Humility across the board is the way to go. I usually try not to get tripped up over people's attitudes unless it's just getting in the way of having a productive / earnest discussion. And I try to stay open minded, because even the most ignorant or arrogant person occasionally raises a good point, or, more often, prompts me to think about how to better communicate my own point. At the end of the day, the goal is just to get closer to understanding the subject matter at hand, objectively.

I already learned several good things in this thread by sharing my thoughts -- some well reasoned and conceived, and some based in partial ignorance or short-sightedness. If I can reduce the latter by making a fool of myself on occasion, I consider that a win.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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Yeah. But self defence is pretty much an opinion based industry.

Take Mark Mcyoung for example.

His whole bio is basically a bunch of catch phrases. And he is a published author subject matter expert.
Most of what Mr. Lawson writes in the book I have read is based on historical fact with many examples and a good bibliography. I dont think its fair to compare him to this fellow. Again, I am not well informed on the topic. I am in no position to have much of a position beyond benefit of doubt.
 

drop bear

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But self defence is an opinion based industry. So a well researched expert is the same as a cool sounding one.

And the effect it has is it colours your sources. A person who is legitimate may still be making stuff up to sound cool.
 

isshinryuronin

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Depends on where I stab you. And of course, ignores all the OTHER things I can be doing as well.

You have evidence to support the claim that being hit with a bat is more and more rapidly debilitating than being stabbed?

I'm no expert in either knives or bats, having limited experience with them. But I have experience in empty hand MA, much of which carries over to weapons.

Statement #1 is well taken. A stab affects only a small area, and if not hitting a major organ can easily leave the opponent functional. It's all about location, location, location. Stabbing an artery or major vein may take a minute to seriously affect him, and a stab to a major nerve nexus can have disabling effects, but hard to count on being this accurate in a fight.

Multiple stabs, say three or four in quick succession, I think would be the way to go. Slashes, while not usually deep enough to get to organs or arteries are able to damage tendons which will incapacitate limbs.

I think many people see knife and other weapon attacks (including a thin baton) as a one or two shot deal, overestimating the weapon's ability. As in empty hand combat, an intelligent combination of various moves in a concerted attack (including an empty hand or foot - "OTHER things") will be most effective in not only inflicting damage, but in keeping the opponent on the defensive as well.

Statement #2: I would think that due to the accuracy needed for a single stab to be debilitating, a strong whack with a bat has a better chance of delivering a disabling single strike. If solid contact is made there will be serious damage most anywhere it hits.
 

Dirty Dog

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I'm no expert in either knives or bats, having limited experience with them. But I have experience in empty hand MA, much of which carries over to weapons.
I have not stabbed or batted a bunch of people. But I have spent 40 years treating them afterwards, which has led to accumulating a bit of knowledge on the subject...
Statement #1 is well taken. A stab affects only a small area, and if not hitting a major organ can easily leave the opponent functional. It's all about location, location, location. Stabbing an artery or major vein may take a minute to seriously affect him, and a stab to a major nerve nexus can have disabling effects, but hard to count on being this accurate in a fight.
No need to be. Stick the blade in reasonably close to the target. Now drag it sideways as you pull it out.
Multiple stabs, say three or four in quick succession, I think would be the way to go. Slashes, while not usually deep enough to get to organs or arteries are able to damage tendons which will incapacitate limbs.
This is the best method for attacking the torso, and can be used effectively on extremities as well.
Slashes with the sort of blades commonly used in assaults (steak knives are the most common, followed by folders) will rarely disable a limb. I can't count how many tendon injuries I've seen. But I also can't recall a single one that was caused by an assailant. My memory isn't perfect, but still... But slashes are very very messy, and seeing blood flow will often discourage the person from continuing the fight.
Statement #2: I would think that due to the accuracy needed for a single stab to be debilitating, a strong whack with a bat has a better chance of delivering a disabling single strike. If solid contact is made there will be serious damage most anywhere it hits.
Bats are over rated as weapons. The vast majority of people I've seen beaten with bats went home with bruises and maybe a few stitches.
 

Alan0354

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Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply. I like the suggestion of testing the hiking pole against a simulated target.

While scenarios are, of course, unpredictable, the strategy I've been taught is to defend, strike, and get the hell out of there. One would hope that a few smacks from hiking pole would be enough to create an exit.

Oddly, my community allows concealed carry of blades, with certain limitations, but not batons. I am comfortable wielding a blade, but preferred the reach and relative non-lethality of an impact weapon.

Another thing I am considering--an aluminum water bottle. I have one that makes an excellent weapon, the only drawback being the less than ideal handhold.
I did not read all 5 pages. I am glad you know collapsible baton is not legal in a lot of places. That would be a very good choice otherwise. So even if you modify a fiberglass pole, it might still be illegal. Law is very funny.

You consider aluminum flash light? There are a lot of them, this is just a quick one I saw on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Rechargeable...4120622&sprefix=tactical+flas,aps,490&sr=8-30

Check the law in your area about tactical flash lights. You can even get one that has stun gun built in.

One question, why do you want it to be very light weight? I have those collapsible baton made of steel, it's NOT heavy to swing. I am not particularly strong and I am 69. It's a whole hell of a lot easier to swing than the Nylon walking cane I use. If you get a 21", it's not that hard to swing. Even the 26" I have is not that bad.

Also, depends on your age, like I am 69, I look perfectly normal carrying a cane everywhere I go. I used to use a rattan cane. I found the biggest and stiffest cane with skin and over 1" diameter:
Walking Cane, Rattan

Ha ha, I took those pictures and gave them to the seller. He's a nice guy. It's about 11oz when cut to like 33" long. You can ask him to pick to about the weight you want. He hand picked for me. Nice guy.

BUT like a few people said, there is no stopping power if the stick is too light. I totally changed my mind when I saw a video on an escrima competition. The two guys just wacked each other the whole time. No defense, just beating each other crazy the whole few minutes. They were still standing after it's over. Sure, they wear protection, BUT anyone that spar before know that no matter what protection you wear, it hurts if you use full power. The last thing I want is when I hit the guy, he just look at me and say "Ouch!!!". Now you have a hurt and angry guy looking at you!!! I since changed to use TWO hands swinging and use a 20oz cane.

So depend on your age, if you are older, consider a cane, that's legal, even go on airplane. If you have problem swinging a heavier cane with one hand, practice with two hands like me. Believe me, I beat the heavy bag to practice. HUGE DIFFERENCE in the sound between using one hand with rattan cane vs two hands with my Nylon cane.

This is the cane I use: United Cutlery 39" Adjustable Walking Black Molded Nylon Shaft Cane 3129 760729312968 | eBay
I cut the hook and make it look very ordinary.

For lighter but still very hard stick and look classy, I have this one:
Cold Steel Walking Stick/Cane New City Stick 91STA | eBay
I change the handle to make it ordinary so I don't attract attention. It's light enough to use single hand. Below is part of my cane collection with all 3 types I described. The Nylon, Cold Steel and the rattan:

Cane collection.jpg


Notice some have a bulge at the bottom for hitting the heavy bag.

Good luck.
 
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E

eskrima88

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I did not read all 5 pages. I am glad you know collapsible baton is not legal in a lot of places. That would be a very good choice otherwise. So even if you modify a fiberglass pole, it might still be illegal. Law is very funny.

You consider aluminum flash light? There are a lot of them, this is just a quick one I saw on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Rechargeable-Tactical-Flashlights-XHP90-Flashlight/dp/B092ZHV3PF/ref=sr_1_30?crid=4IA2XMMPW3SH&keywords=tactical+flashlights&qid=1654120622&sprefix=tactical+flas,aps,490&sr=8-30

Check the law in your area about tactical flash lights. You can even get one that has stun gun built in.

One question, why do you want it to be very light weight? I have those collapsible baton made of steel, it's NOT heavy to swing. I am not particularly strong and I am 69. It's a whole hell of a lot easier to swing than the Nylon walking cane I use. If you get a 21", it's not that hard to swing. Even the 26" I have is not that bad.

Also, depends on your age, like I am 69, I look perfectly normal carrying a cane everywhere I go. I used to use a rattan cane. I found the biggest and stiffest cane with skin and over 1" diameter:
Walking Cane, Rattan

Ha ha, I took those pictures and gave them to the seller. He's a nice guy. It's about 11oz when cut to like 33" long. You can ask him to pick to about the weight you want. He hand picked for me. Nice guy.

BUT like a few people said, there is no stopping power if the stick is too light. I totally changed my mind when I saw a video on an escrima competition. The two guys just wacked each other the whole time. No defense, just beating each other crazy the whole few minutes. They were still standing after it's over. Sure, they wear protection, BUT anyone that spar before know that no matter what protection you wear, it hurts if you use full power. The last thing I want is when I hit the guy, he just look at me and say "Ouch!!!". Now you have a hurt and angry guy looking at you!!! I since changed to use TWO hands swinging and use a 20oz cane.

So depend on your age, if you are older, consider a cane, that's legal, even go on airplane. If you have problem swinging a heavier cane with one hand, practice with two hands like me. Believe me, I beat the heavy bag to practice. HUGE DIFFERENCE in the sound between using one hand with rattan cane vs two hands with my Nylon cane.

This is the cane I use: United Cutlery 39" Adjustable Walking Black Molded Nylon Shaft Cane 3129 760729312968 | eBay
I cut the hook and make it look very ordinary.

For lighter but still very hard stick and look classy, I have this one:
Cold Steel Walking Stick/Cane New City Stick 91STA | eBay
I change the handle to make it ordinary so I don't attract attention. It's light enough to use single hand. Below is part of my cane collection with all 3 types I described. The Nylon, Cold Steel and the rattan:

View attachment 28490

Notice some have a bulge at the bottom for hitting the heavy bag.

Good luck.
Thank you for the suggestions. The reason I want something lightweight is not because it's hard to wield a heavier impact weapon, but because I don't want to lug around something that weighs 1 pound or more, especially not hanging from my waistband. I checked out a collapsible aluminum pole the other day, and, left in collapsed position, it is pretty tough, and very lightweight. Also, I can attach it to my backpack and carry it when I go out.
 

Alan0354

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Thank you for the suggestions. The reason I want something lightweight is not because it's hard to wield a heavier impact weapon, but because I don't want to lug around something that weighs 1 pound or more, especially not hanging from my waistband. I checked out a collapsible aluminum pole the other day, and, left in collapsed position, it is pretty tough, and very lightweight. Also, I can attach it to my backpack and carry it when I go out.
Have you check whether it is legal to carry? This is important, you don't want to get into trouble. I like those collapsible baton, but it's not legal in Ca.

Law is so funny, you can get into more trouble with this than carrying a gun!!!
 
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