Counter to the counter

[Badhabits]

Interested to hear different takes on dealing with a specific situation, a very common one. You throw a high punch and your opponent moves forward/diagonally to your outside, right in that dead zone where we all like to move to so often. What are everyone's sort of "go to" responses when your opponent has flanked you like this and has all sorts of options open to them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You throw a high punch and your opponent moves forward/diagonally to your outside, right in that dead zone

If you can use your leading leg to block your opponents outside leg to prevent him from coming to your back, you can take him down easily.

 

[Fungus]

Interested to hear different takes on dealing with a specific situation, a very common one. You throw a high punch and your opponent moves forward/diagonally to your outside, right in that dead zone where we all like to move to so often. What are everyone's sort of "go to" responses when your opponent has flanked you like this and has all sorts of options open to them.

Not sure if I have a single move, but I come to think of for example...
- ushiro geri with the back leg to their chest or liver
- ushiro mawashi geri gedan (spinning low kick to their lead leg or knee)
- or if they are close I might try to turn and deliver a hook punch with my rear hand
- rear spinning back fist or ushir shuto mawashi tsuki to their neck would also be nice in a real fight but we don't train with head punches
- If they have a wide stance, I would turn and throw an inside mawashi geri to their inside thighs.. this is both painful and can cause them to loose balance

If they arent in clinch I often bait them into stepping to my side, I can then quickly throw a powerful ushiro geri.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Interested to hear different takes on dealing with a specific situation, a very common one. You throw a high punch and your opponent moves forward/diagonally to your outside, right in that dead zone where we all like to move to so often. What are everyone's sort of "go to" responses when your opponent has flanked you like this and has all sorts of options open to them.

If the move to the opponent's outside is done properly, the counters Kung Fu Wang and Fungus suggest will not be possible. Assuming you have moved outside the opponent's right lead:

Your right lead leg should be checking his right leg keeping him from using it.

Your right arm should be checking/grabbing his right arm/shoulder, taking it out of play.

Your left or right hand should be ready to check his left spinning elbow counter.

You should be in close contact (ideally pushing a bit against him with arm, hip and leg) to nullify most any other counter.

If I am able to get to his outside (ideally close to his back) the above conditions will be met. It is then checkmate for my opponent, providing I immediately follow up with an attack. IMO, this is the position you most want to gain. Practicing how to achieve this with various tactics is time very well spent.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If the move to the opponent's outside is done properly, the counters Kung Fu Wang and Fungus suggest will not be possible. Assuming you have moved outside the opponent's right lead:

Your right lead leg should be checking his right leg keeping him from using it.

If your leading right leg is checking my leading right leg, my right leg is also checking your right leg at the same time. How will you be able to move your left leg toward my right-side door? The moment that you move your left leg, the moment I will use my right leg to scoop your right leg.

You try to move behind me. I try to move in front of you and interrupt your circular footwork.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If your leading right leg is checking my leading right leg, my right leg is also checking your right leg at the same time. How will you be able to move your left leg toward my right-side door? The moment that you move your left leg, the moment I will use my right leg to scoop your right leg.

Why would I want to move my left leg? I'm already in position for a reverse punch to side/rear head or neck, to start a takedown, go for a standing choke, etc. Plus, I'm leaning up against you with my right side so if you raise either leg your balance will be broken. And I've got hold of your right arm to further control your position and balance. Game over. The hard part is closing in to gain this position. That takes speed and tactics. A progressive attack on the opponent's lead arm is one way to close in while moving his arm out of the way and turning the opponent to the side to gain more of his back at the same time.

 

[Gyakuto]

Rotate slightly to face them and let a technique rise up naturally.

 

[marvin8]

Interested to hear different takes on dealing with a specific situation, a very common one. You throw a high punch and your opponent moves forward/diagonally to your outside, right in that dead zone where we all like to move to so often. What are everyone's sort of "go to" responses when your opponent has flanked you like this and has all sorts of options open to them.

Your opponent has the advantage. After you throw that punch, you have to block, evade or create distance to defend yourself from the opponent's attack then control the line and attack.

Rotate slightly to face them and let a technique rise up naturally.

It's too late. As you rotate, the opponent attacks you from their advantageous position.

 

[Holmejr]

Interested to hear different takes on dealing with a specific situation, a very common one. You throw a high punch and your opponent moves forward/diagonally to your outside, right in that dead zone where we all like to move to so often. What are everyone's sort of "go to" responses when your opponent has flanked you like this and has all sorts of options open to them.

Is that a jab or a cross or do you mean an overhead from the rear?
I think this is the scenario you are proposing.
If the defender slips your right rear cross, he will probably either split entry or left hook / shovel hook you to the liver. In Judo/BJJ there are a bunch of take down options from the slip. One good way to avoid that is lower your center of gravity, pivot counter clockwise, retract your right punch quickly to defend both liver and head as He might left low hook or low high hook combo. Along with the counter clockwise pivot, you can throw your own left hook to the opponents head to put them on the defensive.
Obviously there are many many scenarios that can come off the penetrating slip. Good footwork, balance and composure make a big difference in this vulnerable position.

 

[Badhabits]

If the move to the opponent's outside is done properly, the counters Kung Fu Wang and Fungus suggest will not be possible. Assuming you have moved outside the opponent's right lead:

Your right lead leg should be checking his right leg keeping him from using it.

Your right arm should be checking/grabbing his right arm/shoulder, taking it out of play.

Your left or right hand should be ready to check his left spinning elbow counter.

You should be in close contact (ideally pushing a bit against him with arm, hip and leg) to nullify most any other counter.

If I am able to get to his outside (ideally close to his back) the above conditions will be met. It is then checkmate for my opponent, providing I immediately follow up with an attack. IMO, this is the position you most want to gain. Practicing how to achieve this with various tactics is time very well spent.

And right here is why I'm brainstorming this lol. We spend a lot of time training to gain this position due to its advantages, so dealing with being on the receiving end must be important?

 

[Badhabits]

Several responses here list rotating towards the opponent and punching, but aren't we just rotating ourselves right into the other person's punch if it's coming high?

 

[Badhabits]

Your opponent has the advantage. After you throw that punch, you have to block, evade or create distance to defend yourself from the opponent's attack then control the line and attack.


It's too late. As you rotate, the opponent attacks you from their advantageous position.

Would creating distance be the less preferable option here?

 

[Badhabits]

If you can use your leading leg to block your opponents outside leg to prevent him from coming to your back, you can take him down easily.

I like this. Will be experimenting with it. Seems it could be a good way of preventing them from reaching your flank in the first place.

 

[HighKick]

Would creating distance be the less preferable option here?

I don't think so because it opens you up for a lead leg kick.

When someone side-steps in on me, I like to turn into to motion. Then I can easier counter or block with my hands and it opens me up for a rear leg crescent or if they take a long enough step, a tight spinning body kick

 

[Badhabits]

Is that a jab or a cross or do you mean an overhead from the rear?
I think this is the scenario you are proposing.
If the defender slips your right rear cross, he will probably either split entry or left hook / shovel hook you to the liver. In Judo/BJJ there are a bunch of take down options from the slip. One good way to avoid that is lower your center of gravity, pivot counter clockwise, retract your right punch quickly to defend both liver and head as He might left low hook or low high hook combo. Along with the counter clockwise pivot, you can throw your own left hook to the opponents head to put them on the defensive.
Obviously there are many many scenarios that can come off the slip. Good footwork, balance and composure make a big difference in this vulnerable position.

Either one really. Just someone getting to the outside of your punch where they have the advantage. You mentioned takedown options and lowering center of gravity, this seems good. One of my favorite go to's for this scenario comes from the series of double knife hand blocks at the end of pinan shodan, used as a wedge throw. Reaching your foot behind them drops you down some to avoid an incoming punch to the face, then topple them backwards over that leg with the knife hand motion.

 

[Badhabits]

I don't think so because it opens you up for a lead leg kick.

When someone side-steps in on me, I like to turn into to motion. Then I can easier counter or block with my hands and it opens me up for a rear leg crescent or if they take a long enough step, a tight spinning body kick

Are you talking like a spinning back kick? The style I've been training recently chambers the back kick in a way it can be thrown at very close range so seems like a good fit, will try it out.
Targeting the head with that rear leg crescent?

 

[Badhabits]

Not sure if I have a single move, but I come to think of for example...
- ushiro geri with the back leg to their chest or liver
- ushiro mawashi geri gedan (spinning low kick to their lead leg or knee)
- or if they are close I might try to turn and deliver a hook punch with my rear hand
- rear spinning back fist or ushir shuto mawashi tsuki to their neck would also be nice in a real fight but we don't train with head punches
- If they have a wide stance, I would turn and throw an inside mawashi geri to their inside thighs.. this is both painful and can cause them to loose balance

If they arent in clinch I often bait them into stepping to my side, I can then quickly throw a powerful ushiro geri.

Nice options. Spinning back fist and shuto are calling out to me lol.

 

[Badhabits]

Footwork seems to be the key here?

 

[marvin8]

And right here is why I'm brainstorming this lol. We spend a lot of time training to gain this position due to its advantages, so dealing with being on the receiving end must be important?

As the opponent steps to the outside position, they can simultaneously attack preventing "being on the receiving end."

https://imgur.com/WwsvBnU

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like this. Will be experimenting with it. Seems it could be a good way of preventing them from reaching your flank in the first place.

It's the best counter for "arm drag".