Counter-art class

[skribs]

I had a very interesting class today. Our Muay Thai coach asked me to come and do a class on Taekwondo: tactics, technique, mindset, tendencies. There are some folks in our Muay Thai league with a Taekwondo background, and they don't fight like a typical Muay Thai fighter. He wanted me to come give some ideas on how TKD guys think, so folks could be better prepared for those fights.

During the class, we went through several drills. Each drill went through two phases. The first phase, I would demonstrate things that Taekwondo folks might do different, and then they would practice that. For example, different footwork, entries, or how Taekwondo folks like to bait and counter-attack. Then, while the students were drilling the TKD technique, the Muay Thai coach and I would workshop the counter. That led to phase two: we would show the counter, and students would practice countering the technique they just learned.

It worked out really well. The students got to practice a little bit different footwork, and some kicks that they don't normally practice, such as the spin back kick and the question-mark kick (which is a Muay Thai kick, but they don't practice it much). They also got a lot of good practice countering these techniques.

It was all done from a place of mutual respect. The coach didn't approach it as, "Taekwondo is dumb, look how easy it is to counter these techniques". He took it as a learning opportunity and set the tone from the beginning that this is about making each other better.

I learned a lot from this. It was one of the most interesting (if not the most) martial arts classes I've ever been a part of.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It worked out really well. The students got to practice a little bit different footwork, and some kicks that they don't normally practice, such as the spin back kick and the question-mark kick (which is a Muay Thai kick, but they don't practice it much). They also got a lot of good practice countering these techniques.

I've used and taught this kick since forever, but never gave it a name. I've always taught it as a variation of the roundhouse. It's fairly deceptive. I recommend throwing a couple intentionally telegraphed front kicks to "train" your opponent, then the roundhouse.

 

[skribs]

Sounds like a solid idea having a dedicated class to explore counters really sharpens timing and situational awareness. It’s one thing to drill techniques, but learning how to read and respond in real-time adds a whole new layer. Curious what kind of counters you're focusing on striking, joint locks, throws? Always great to see this kind of focused training.

It was a Muay Thai class, so mostly basic kicks and punches.

 

[HighKick]

I've used and taught this kick since forever, but never gave it a name. I've always taught it as a variation of the roundhouse. It's fairly deceptive. I recommend throwing a couple intentionally telegraphed front kicks to "train" your opponent, then the roundhouse.

I will be honest. Like you, I have done this kick for forever but never heard it called a 'question mark kick'. We simply called it 'fake low, go high'.
The better you can bait them with the first part of the kick (lots of knee and shoulder preamble) the more they take the bait and lower their hands leaving the roundhouse open.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I will be honest. Like you, I have done this kick for forever but never heard it called a 'question mark kick'. We simply called it 'fake low, go high'.
The better you can bait them with the first part of the kick (lots of knee and shoulder preamble) the more they take the bait and lower their hands leaving the roundhouse open.

I'd say that "question mark kick" is more specific than just "fake low, go high". There are lots of ways to do the later, while the question mark kick is specifically about using the low center-line threat to open up the high outside line.

That said, it's the only example of that sort of tactic I can think have which has its own widespread individual name. I'm sure I'm not the only person who sometimes shows a low inside roundhouse kick and then converts it into a high outside hook kick. But I've never heard of an official name for that technique. I don't know whether the question mark kick got named because it is more common than other "fake one line, kick in another" techniques or because the shape of the movement just happens to present an obvious name.

 

[windwalker099]

I'm sure I'm not the only person who sometimes shows a low inside roundhouse kick and then converts it into a high outside hook kick. But I've never heard of an official name for that technique. I don't know whether the question mark kick got named because it is more common than other "fake one line, kick in another" techniques or because the shape of the movement just happens to present an obvious name.

Bill Wallace demos some of the ideas presented

"everything is the same thing, until I straighten the leg out "

 

[skribs]

I'd say that "question mark kick" is more specific than just "fake low, go high". There are lots of ways to do the later, while the question mark kick is specifically about using the low center-line threat to open up the high outside line.

That said, it's the only example of that sort of tactic I can think have which has its own widespread individual name. I'm sure I'm not the only person who sometimes shows a low inside roundhouse kick and then converts it into a high outside hook kick. But I've never heard of an official name for that technique. I don't know whether the question mark kick got named because it is more common than other "fake one line, kick in another" techniques or because the shape of the movement just happens to present an obvious name.

If I have one I do often, I try to name it.

My Muay Thai coach has one that is a fake low roundhouse, hit with a teep (almost a twist kick). I call it an S kick.

I have a few that start as a crescent kick, one ends as a side kick (I call it the spiral kick) and another as a roundhouse (looping kick).

As a concept, I call these "recurve kicks".

 

[HighKick]

I'd say that "question mark kick" is more specific than just "fake low, go high". There are lots of ways to do the later, while the question mark kick is specifically about using the low center-line threat to open up the high outside line.

That said, it's the only example of that sort of tactic I can think have which has its own widespread individual name. I'm sure I'm not the only person who sometimes shows a low inside roundhouse kick and then converts it into a high outside hook kick. But I've never heard of an official name for that technique. I don't know whether the question mark kick got named because it is more common than other "fake one line, kick in another" techniques or because the shape of the movement just happens to present an obvious name.

For certain.
There is quite a long list of combinations that are used for combo/setups to get the opponent to drop their hands and open up the kick high. For me, it has to do with angle relative to the opponent, their lead leg, and guard position. I just don't see it as a 'one size fits all' kick.

That said, it is good to identify a specific pair of kicks to teach/train to get the concept down and expand from there.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If I have one I do often, I try to name it.

My Muay Thai coach has one that is a fake low roundhouse, hit with a teep (almost a twist kick). I call it an S kick.

That's a good one and it's common enough that maybe it should have its own name. Keep at it, maybe you'll be the one to popularize a name for it.