good stances

[mantis]

my teacher wants us to hold a staff while we do everything in class to develop a good foundation!
how long does it take to develop solid stances?
i try to do every while im in a perfect stance but still cannot hold myself in a stance for long. i have a lot of trouble staying in a low horse stance, or a forward stance (maybe known as bow-and-arrow stance)..
i wonder if you care about your stances, and how much of your time/effort you spend on them
and maybe if you have an advise for me... (default = practice more!)

 

[Navarre]

I don't practice this style so if I'm out of line I apologize. But, when I first started martial arts (Okinawan karate in this case) holding my stance was one of the hardest things for me.

My back would ache and my legs would get weak. I would continue to force myself down into the stance because I would want to reflexively rise to alleviate the pressure. Muscle failure would cause my legs to shake uncontrollably and I felt like an idiot.

My instructor was patient and understanding but insisted that I hold down in that stance no matter what. Simply put, it got easier.

Eventually I could remain in even a low stance for an entire class period if need be with no effort put towards it. This freed my mind to focus on other critical elements. My stances became strong, my legs powerful, and my techniques crisp and smooth.

How long did it take? I don't know, it was a long time ago and a gradual process, but it was worth it. I'd say a few months to be where I would consider myself adequate but longer to be as efficient as I described.

Now, after being away from training for so long, I find myself right back where I started. But, I remember my first lessons and am patiently focusing on my stances first. You'll get there too. Keep at it!

 

[t-bone1972]

stances are the core or your art, that is where you generate all of you power so yes they are important. It is just like resistance training with weights you will get stronger and find it easier to hold them. Look at all of you techniques and forms and you will see that all of your stances are contained in them that is how important they are.

 

[Infrazael]

I don't know how the Northern guys will react to this, but. . . .. most Southern gung fu players will say this. . ..

DON'T GO SO LOW!!!

 

[clfsean]

I don't know how the Northern guys will react to this, but. . . .. most Southern gung fu players will say this. . ..

DON'T GO SO LOW!!!

Eh my sifu will nag on me for agreeing with that, but true! I prefer a nice middle height, but we tend to go low & long (or at least try to) for the endurance & strength training. Do something say Siu Moi Fa length about 5 times with parallel thighs... *ouch* That's what we "try" to do.

To sum it up though --- No Horse, No Kung Fu ...

 

[Navarre]

Again, if I shouldn't even be posting in a kung-fu forum please tell me and I'll humbly depart. I am, however, always interested in knowing the concepts of other styles, especially those very different from what I've studied.

Although the strength conditioning benefits of a low stance is obvious, what is the philosophical approach as it applies to combat?

I could see that it would have a lot of stability, making it hard to sweep a leg. It also would force many opponents to attack in ways uncommon for them, thus creating a tactical advantage.

On the other hand, mobility would seem to be very limited. Because the center of gravity is so low and there is no dynamic motion, exploding from that stance into an attack would seem most difficult.

I'd be interested in hearing how the stance is designed to be applied in combat. Thanks.

 

[clfsean]

Again, if I shouldn't even be posting in a kung-fu forum please tell me and I'll humbly depart. I am, however, always interested in knowing the concepts of other styles, especially those very different from what I've studied.

Eh you're fine! You ask relative, pertinent questions without being an *** like many have done in the past. Ask away because the best discussions come when people have a different outlook & are genuinely questioning something different than they're used to.

Although the strength conditioning benefits of a low stance is obvious, what is the philosophical approach as it applies to combat?

Philiosphically? That's kinda hard. Could you expound on that? Maybe rephrase that? It could go several different ways depending on what you're referring to.

I could see that it would have a lot of stability, making it hard to sweep a leg. It also would force many opponents to attack in ways uncommon for them, thus creating a tactical advantage.

That it does. It allows for leg trapping & locking while moving into their center. If I move into somebody (save CMA terms) & drop into a bent knee stance on top of their knee, two things have happened. One, I've taken (or should've) their balance & stability while turning their body (again should've) to a move advantageous position to me. Two, I've put myself in a superior position to them & have moved into a stance I'm comfortable being in for a second or two while I deliver strikes/blocks/traps etc...

On the other hand, mobility would seem to be very limited. Because the center of gravity is so low and there is no dynamic motion, exploding from that stance into an attack would seem most difficult.

Very true, but nobody I've seen fights from a lower position. We (CMA) tend to move in & out of it, but never staying in it longer than is necessary. As to the dynamic motions & exploding energies, actually they develop very nicely & come quite naturally from a lower position.

I'd be interested in hearing how the stance is designed to be applied in combat. Thanks.

Kind touched it above.

 

[Navarre]

Thanks, sean. Very interesting.

I've occasionally dropped into lower stances myself. Like you, I do not remain in them for long. Exploding from the stance depends more on my weight placement and foot direction that depth of stance. I have seen the psychological advantage instantly as an opponent tries to mentally cope with fighting something so unorthodox.

My biggest problem overall is that the stance only works (for me at least) to either strengthen my balance, place me for a low-position assault, or to spring forward on an attack. I have been trained to work angled attacks a long and require quick change of direction.

That is where my difficulty lies. With proper training have you found it easy to change direction once you have launched from the stance or is it a more defensive posture?

 

[clfsean]

Thanks, sean. Very interesting.

I've occasionally dropped into lower stances myself. Like you, I do not remain in them for long. Exploding from the stance depends more on my weight placement and foot direction that depth of stance. I have seen the psychological advantage instantly as an opponent tries to mentally cope with fighting something so unorthodox.

My biggest problem overall is that the stance only works (for me at least) to either strengthen my balance, place me for a low-position assault, or to spring forward on an attack. I have been trained to work angled attacks a long and require quick change of direction.

That is where my difficulty lies. With proper training have you found it easy to change direction once you have launched from the stance or is it a more defensive posture?

As with anything you train, be it video games, target shooting, race car driving, etc... the longer you do something, your mind/body becomes adept & used to the motions, positions & all.

So low stance training translates into lower fighting postures with the same amount of ease a somebody who's used to fighting high. The difference is that if I'm used to maintaining a lower position as well as a higher one, I can choose to the one that works with equal ease of use. If the opponent tries to match (for whatever reason) without the training, then it's to my advantage.

But to answer your direct question, yes it's just as easy to move/change direction in a lowered posture as a higher one.

Plus it looks cool... :ultracool

 

[Navarre]

Plus it looks cool... :ultracool

And, as we true martial artists secretly know, looking cool is what really matters. As long as we look good in the fight we can still get chicks, even if we lose, and therefore we always win. lol

Thanks for the info, sean.

 

[mantis]

I don't know how the Northern guys will react to this, but. . . .. most Southern gung fu players will say this. . ..

DON'T GO SO LOW!!!

they will probably say we dont go low when we fight, but need to go low when praqctice to build foundation!

 

[mantis]

Again, if I shouldn't even be posting in a kung-fu forum please tell me and I'll humbly depart. I am, however, always interested in knowing the concepts of other styles, especially those very different from what I've studied.

Although the strength conditioning benefits of a low stance is obvious, what is the philosophical approach as it applies to combat?

I could see that it would have a lot of stability, making it hard to sweep a leg. It also would force many opponents to attack in ways uncommon for them, thus creating a tactical advantage.

On the other hand, mobility would seem to be very limited. Because the center of gravity is so low and there is no dynamic motion, exploding from that stance into an attack would seem most difficult.

I'd be interested in hearing how the stance is designed to be applied in combat. Thanks.

only use it when you need ur center of gravity lower from ur oponent. this is good for throws and takedowns, and also an essential element of chin'na when it comes to neutralizing bearhugs and things like that.
you may also use low stances as you hit and then come out of them as your strike is over

 

[dmax999]

Low stances obviously build leg strength quickly. Since your power is developed with your legs this is a good thing.

Fighting is not usually done at the low level you practice at. I'm sure it happens some times, but not frequently.

Also build flexibility and strenghtens tendons/ligiments.

One last bonus... It allows you to root easier. Over time you can learn to root just as well up higher, but putting all your weight on one leg in a low stance is the easiest way. At least for me it is. Going really low in Tai Chi I learned to root on each step, but I still have to really work at it while in higher stances. This may just be me, or there may be a logical explaniation and it works for everyone.

I don't think you ever get good enough to be happy with stances. After years and great improvements I still think I have a long way to go to get good.

 

[mantis]

now that you generously reminded us of the great benefits of stances, would you please recommend ways to help me stay longer in my stances, or develop better stances?

 

[Navarre]

Easy. Stay in your stance as long as possible, keeping good form. If you want a better technique, do the technique.

 

[mantis]

yah i figured
that's what im doing now.. but i guess i need to be more patient..
i was wondering if running, or working out can help me with it..
i actually had people stand on my legs when i do the bow-and-arrow and the horse stance.. haha kinda hurts the knees tho!
thanks for comments

 

[Navarre]

Well, anything that improves the long-term muscle endurance of your legs, and secondarily your back, will be helpful.

Changing up exercise routines is the best way to get all-around conditioning. However, for a single technique or stance, nothing really beats simply doing it so much you dream about it.

I once told my instructor I wasn't happy with my punch and asked him how to make it better. He sent me out with instructions to do 1000 punches per day, starting over any time I felt I'd made a poor punch. By the end of the week I felt a whole lot better about my technique!

...and, incidentally, he insisted I must maintain a proper horse stance the entire time, starting over with the whole thing if I raised out of it. It didn't take long for me to have a good solid stance that I could hold for a very long time!

 

[mantis]

Well, anything that improves the long-term muscle endurance of your legs, and secondarily your back, will be helpful.

Changing up exercise routines is the best way to get all-around conditioning. However, for a single technique or stance, nothing really beats simply doing it so much you dream about it.

I once told my instructor I wasn't happy with my punch and asked him how to make it better. He sent me out with instructions to do 1000 punches per day, starting over any time I felt I'd made a poor punch. By the end of the week I felt a whole lot better about my technique!

...and, incidentally, he insisted I must maintain a proper horse stance the entire time, starting over with the whole thing if I raised out of it. It didn't take long for me to have a good solid stance that I could hold for a very long time!

wow.. talking about determination man!
hey, is the karate/JJ horse stance different from kung fu's?

 

[dmax999]

Karate horse stance is higher (Some may be the same as kung-fu, but ones I took and have seen are much higher). Kung-Fu the thighs are parallel to the ground.

There are a couple things you can do to improve. One is obviously practice more often staying in it longer.

A "trick" I like to try is see if you can relax the muscles that end up hurting. It sounds impossible at first, but over time you can "relax" muscles as they are holding you up. Some stances this is a requirement to do the stance properly, like drop stance (Snake creeps down in Tai Chi).

One method I have been told is hold the stance till your legs start shaking, and then keep holding until the shake finally goes away. Must take more willpower then I have.

Also better flexibility will help. Strech out legs every day and before practicing stances.
Don't worry too much about it. With how much you seem to want to get better, within a couple months you will notice huge improvements.

 

[clfsean]

yah i figured
that's what im doing now.. but i guess i need to be more patient..
i was wondering if running, or working out can help me with it..
i actually had people stand on my legs when i do the bow-and-arrow and the horse stance.. haha kinda hurts the knees tho!
thanks for comments

Just practice them each day.

Be sure to get your legs very warm & ready for the strain that accompanies it.

Do each of your stances "X" amount of time WELL before increasing time. Once it's done WELL for that amount of time, increase the time. This includes your upper body in proper position & alignment as well. Remember stances aren't just about your legs being in postures "X" & your upper body disconnected. A good stance starts at the crown of your head & ends under your feet with your entire body working the stance.

DO NOT HAVE PEOPLE STAND ON YOUR LEGS!! It's not all it's cracked up to be & trust somebody with bad knees & hips courtesy of reproducing stupid **** seen in movies, it's not worth it.